Elder Eric of Tominthebox News Network posted on Obama Explains Election Process. His satirical post is hilarious but also reveals his Calvinist presuppositions.
Here is my take on the same subject, originally written as a comment on Eric’s post – perhaps the start of a series of satirical posts here:
In this election year Texas voter, and fringe member of an evangelical church, John Doe is puzzled. He sees that he has the opportunity to elect Obama or Clinton, McCain or Huckabee as President. And he sees all the campaign materials from them. But then he hears in church that God may or may not elect him to eternal life. So he has decided to mount his own election campaign. He is having leaflets printed and TV adverts prepared with the message, “O God, vote for Doe!” He is not sure yet of the most effective method of delivering his campaign message. One technique he is trying, suggested by a friend who had read Revelation 8:4, is to burn some of his leaflets along with incense. He plans to broadcast his TV ad upwards into the sky. But he is also targeting his leaflets and TV ad, recorded on DVD, at people he thinks are especially close to God, of whatever religion to hedge his bets, in the hope that they will put in a word for him with the one Voter who counts in his race for eternal life.
nothing like a good set of Calvinist presuppositions!
I caught your blog from the TBNN site and was curious about your response.
I think the doctrine of the Sovereignty of God in election is unnecessarily one of the most divisive topics in modern evangelical circles. After being brought up Armenian (not formally, just normal, run-of-the-mill, second half of the 20th century, Southern Baptist), I was asked one time by someone who embraced a more Calvinistic view how I pray for someone’s salvation. Like, what exactly, do I say to God when I pray. I have to preface that the very idea of a God who “picks and chooses” just turned my stomach. MY God, my Gentlemanly God would not do such a thing. The thought actually repulsed me.
I thought about my response for a few seconds and answered what I believe almost any believer would say -that God would move in the non-believers life-that He would somehow show them their sin, that God would bring them to repentance, that He would affect their lives in such a way that they can’t help but seek answers in Him,- you know, normal stuff.
My challenger said, “Exactly. We pray for God to move people from where they are to where they need to be. And He does. God does it. He opens their eyes.”
I was stunned. I had really never considered that possibility. I went home and was raging mad. I felt like I had been duped. Still not sure, I pulled out my Bible and essentially challenged God to a duel. I began pouring over the Word to build my case back up, and at every turn, scripture was popping up that I don’t think I had read before. All over Romans, Ephesians, everywhere I looked it seemed He was showing me this Truth. I just wept and asked forgiveness for putting Him in a box-MY box, of the God I thought I wanted, not the one true God who IS.
I have to say, when I realized God’s hand in my salvation, I wasn’t proud. I was devastated. All my life I thought I was smarter than my family that didn’t believe, that Jesus really wanted me on His team, and would just plead with them to trust God. All they had to do was just believe. It never occurred to me that there were still blinders on, and that no matter what I said, I couldn’t be the Holy Spirit for someone. I cannot convict of sin-only God can (this has further been evidenced to me by parenting!). My job-my privilege is to share the hope we have in Christ. Those who share their faith are not the ends- but the means by which God moves. Sure, there are a few Calvinists (I don’t even think I’ve read anything by him, so I get offended by people who call me that) who may take pride in being chosen, but that’s exactly that-pride. Shame, shame.
We are dead in our sins and transgressions- Eph 2:1-we can’t choose to be alive if we are dead. I am so humbled and grateful to our Living God for His masterful plan of salvation. Because I know I didn’t author my own salvation, I can be grateful to the One who did-God.
Sorry to ramble. It just caught my eye in your response to Tom’s post that your John Doe really wants God to “vote” for him. I would just say that the fact that Mr. Doe wants the “vote” from God means God already has.
Just a few more thoughts:
1. How do you pray for people’s salvation?
2. What happens to our free will after salvation? Can we “unchoose” God? If so, why wouldn’t God-if He did ‘looks down the corridor of time’-just see that we eventually unchose and leave it at that? If not, why can’t we “unchoose”?
3. Does the Word ever imply that Pharaoh, Esau, the Phillistines, the Canaanites, the Pharisees, and may have come to know God? Were some, in fact, chosen beforehand for destruction?
4. Can you find or think of anyone in the Bible who came to a saving knowledge of God through their own initiation or their “moving toward” Him?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think God really minds if we have peas over beans one day-I know we have free will to choose things on this earth-we can be as dumb and as careless as we want to, but regarding spiritual things, He has to make the decisions. I think an accurate study of the full Counsel of God supports it. It can’t be any other way. Thank God! :0)
Thanks for letting me share. Blessings to you and yours.
Thanks, Tracy, for your moving comment. I certainly agree that we shouldn’t take pride in our salvation, whether in our own choice or in God’s. I agree that we can pray for God to open people’s eyes and he does, but if with open eyes they choose to reject salvation they still have that option – and remains one through their life. I don’t believe that we should use prayer to overrule people’s free will, that is manipulation. As for your question 3, see Matthew 23:37, at least for the Pharisees and other unbelieving Jews, and Hebrews 12:16 regarding Esau who sold his salvation. On question 4, how about the crowds who surged round Jesus, e.g. the 5000 he fed, when he wanted peace and quiet? Or the Greeks of John 12:20-21? Or the Ephesians in Acts 19:17-20? I am not saying that God was not working in these people’s hearts, because of course he was, but they made the initiative to come to Jesus and the apostles and hear the gospel.
Sorry I’m just getting back. I’ve been out of town.
I will agree that although I’ve only met one Calvinist that seemed prideful about his election, I know they exist and can leave a bitter taste in one’s mouth. The bitterness has nothing to do with one’s view of a Sovereign God who elects, does it?
Using prayer to overrule people’s free will: I don’t think that’s possible. If I thought for one second that I could manipulate people’s will by just praying it into existence, I would definitely use it to overrule my children’s desire to defy me. I would use it to overrule the choices of women who would choose to harm their unborn children. I do, instead, pray for wisdom and discernment on how to rear my children for the glory of God, and for God to soften their hearts to receive instruction. I pray for wise leaders and strong believers to come alongside struggling women to encourage them to make right choices-based on the Truth of the Bible which God mercifully gave us to know Him, and who can share the hope of God with them through their struggles. Just because both goals are admirable doesn’t guarantee God will answer them in the way I desire.
In the same light, God doesn’t need our prayers before He can make a move. Right before he was taken from the Garden, Jesus prayed to the Father that the cup be passed from Him. God denied that request. Regardless of what Jesus could have said, nothing could have changed God’s plan for His son. We could not have justification without that Sacrifice. Ultimately, Jesus prayed for God’s will to be done, which it graciously was, from which we both receive daily benefit. Thank you, God!
Also, are you in the camp that can choose-out of salvation? It seems that way with your answer. If you are, I admire you for being consistent. Most free-will people I know want the freedom to choose and yet the safety of permanence-even in an unfruitful life. I think the Bible speaks against those who do not work out their faith, but that’s another discussion. :0)
Yes, Matthew 23:37 is the culmination of a long, crushing (but apparently not convicting), condemnation to the scribes and Pharisees. I believe those beds of contention were made hundreds of years before when Israel “played the harlot” with her enemies. Had Israel accepted Jesus as Messiah the gospel may not have come to the Gentiles (Rom 11:11-29). Again, God showing His Sovereignty in all things! Israel is still a chosen people. I’m sure Jehovah is still working in the life of that country. It’s just devastating that Jesus is absent from it.
I would say that God does not open all people’s eyes. In Matthew 13:11, Jesus is speaking to the disciples and, in response to their question about why He spoke in parables, “… He answered them saying, ‘To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted'”. Now we know from the context that Jesus has been speaking to “great multitudes”(13:2). I would also comfortably say that the multitudes had most likely heard of Jesus and were interested in hearing Him speak. I think we can both agree that not everyone who hears preaching on Jesus, especially at the seminar-level only (they were with Him three days, v. 15:32), will commit their life to Christ. We only know that they heard Him speak and received the benefit of the miracle of the loaves and fishes. We also read in Matt. 13:34-35 that Jesus only spoke in parables to multitudes after that point.
Regarding Esau: Romans 9:6-23 addresses God’s infinite wisdom for Esau. Verse 11 states, “for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her (Rebekah), ‘The older will serve the younger’. Just as it is written, ‘Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated'”. I would put forth that Esau was acting according to God’s plan for him with the selling of his birthright. That is the way God chose for Esau to get out-of-order for blessings from Isaac (which was laying the groundwork for God’s ultimate plan for Israel).
The Greeks: If you look back at John 12:17 and read through the story, I don’t know that we can confidently say that the Greeks came to know Christ. They may have, they may not. We know Jesus was surrounded by another multitude of people following Him because they knew He raised Lazarus from the dead (v17-18). We do know from v 42 that some did believe, even if they didn’t admit it publically. They came for miracles and left as changed beings.
The Ephesians: The Ephesians were not seeking after Jesus in this context. They heard about what happened with the priests sons posing as those who had the authority to cast out demons and the response of the demon (v15) and were afraid. It’s possible they were moved to salvation, but all we know for sure is that they talked enough about Jesus that His name was getting around.
My goal is not to reform you (Ha Ha!). By all outward appearances we agree that we have to be exposed to the gospel to believe it and receive it. The difference is whether we can do that in our human strength, wisdom, or power. I say if we can, it’s a “work” coming from dead men (Eph 2:1) and therefore not grace (Rom 11:5-6).
I leave you with this:
Romans 9:22: “What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? (23) And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (24) even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.”
God is merciful and gracious to allow us “vessels of mercy” to know Him!
May the LORD bless and keep you.
Thanks, Tracy. I agree that we can’t override others’ free will by prayer, and that is why not everyone you and I pray for to become Christians actually do. But many do, praise the Lord, because God opens their eyes to see the truth about him. That does not necessarily imply that God opens everyone’s eyes in response to prayer, any more than he heals everyone in answer to prayer. I need to think more about that one.
As for Romans 9:22-24, note the “What if?” in v.22. Paul’s point is not that what follows is true, but that it is none of our business whether it is true or not, cf. v.20. “He did so” in v.23 has been added in your translation, with no basis in the Greek, in which verses 22-23 are one sentence. God has the right to do this if he wishes, but Paul carefully avoids saying that he has actually done so.
Yes, I do believe that people can choose to reject their salvation
By the way, Tracy, I found a better example of biblical teaching that people seek and find God apart from his specific activity in their lives: Acts 17:27.