My recent posts Leading or Lording and Is it wrong to refer to someone as “pastor”? have generated quite a lot of interest and comment, especially about A. Amos Love’s rather long-winded contributions.
Amos certainly makes some good points. But he also goes too far. For example, in an extract I quoted before, he wrote:
Jesus told His disciples not to be called master/leader …
He also wrote in a recent comment
“the tradition of men” declares we “must” have “overseers/elders/leaders.” …
Jesus told his disciples “not” to be called “leader”
But actually that is not quite correct. What he actually said in Matthew 23:8-10 was that his disciples are not to be called “Rabbi”, or “Father”, or “Teacher/Master”. The last of these words is difficult: kathēgētēs, a word used in the New Testament only in 23:10 – not the usual Greek word for “teacher”, didaskalos, as in Ephesians 4:11, but also not the word for “master” or “lord”, kurios, in Ephesians 6:5. The word is related to English “hegemony” but also to “exegete”, and I guess that illustrates its ambiguity in Greek. But D.A. Carson, writing on this verse in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, says:
it seems wiser to take kathēgētēs as a synonym for didaskalos.
In other words, one of the world’s top exegetes agrees that this word means not “master” but “teacher”, as rendered in NIV and TNIV, cf. NRSV “instructor”.
(By the way, I think that NIV and TNIV are wrong to translate didaskalos as “Master” in 23:8, and I have submitted a suggestion of a change to “Teacher” through Wayne Leman’s NIV revision suggestion website, as promoted at Better Bibles Blog.)
So I don’t think we have any real evidence that “Jesus told His disciples not to be called master/leader”. But even if we do accept the KJV and RSV rendering “master” this does not imply that Jesus was rejecting all leadership. After all, this passage in Matthew seems to me to be about accepting titles, not about executing functions. I’m sure he didn’t intend to forbid teaching in the church or the secular world, still less to forbid fatherhood! So, even if he did forbid the use of titles like “master” or even “leader”, his point was not to forbid people from exercising leadership functions.
This is made clear from Jesus’ teaching elsewhere. For example, in Luke 22:26 (TNIV) he teaches
the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.
“The one who rules” in Greek is ho hēgoumenos, rendered “he that is chief” in KJV and “the leader” in RSV and NRSV. In Matthew’s parallel, 20:27, and in Mark’s, 10:44, Jesus’ words (perhaps spoken on a different occasion) are presented as “whoever wants to be first”.
The Greek words ho hēgoumenos are again related to the English “hegemony”. But it is significant that this is not the noun hēgemōn “ruler”, used for example of secular governors in Luke 21:12. Rather, it is the participle of the verb hēgeomai “rule”, and so is correctly rendered “the one who rules”, suggesting a role which might be temporary rather than a permanent position of authority. But since the word “rule” is used in current English mainly of secular authority, perhaps “the one who leads” would be better in context.
The same participle form is used in Hebrews 13:7,17,24, rendered “your leaders” in TNIV, but perhaps I should suggest a change to “those who lead you”. Acts 14:12 (TNIV “chief”) and 15:22 (TNIV “leaders”) appear to be the only other uses in the New Testament of the hēgeomai word group relating to Christian leadership.
So Jesus clearly spoke here about his disciples ruling, or at least exercising leadership. He also gave strict instructions about how that leadership was to be exercised. But he did not have in mind what my commented Amos seems to promote, leaderless congregations.
Rabbi also translates as didaskolos according to one of of the world’s top translators of the sayings of Jesus to Greek. See John 1:38
Peter, thanks for reminding us how to read a passage: Context! context! Context! It seems like Mr. Amos has set context aside.
After all, this passage in Matthew seems to me to be about accepting titles, not about executing functions.
That’s what Jesus said the religious leaders were actually doing (vv. 5-7).
Wordplay is missing the point. A congregation with no leadership would go nowhere. If Jesus is supposed to lead a local church, through the Holy Spirit, then He’s got to do that through *us*. Some of us, all of us, one of us – makes no difference. Let’s take turns. In real life, Leading, Leaders and Leadership is a positive sign of healthy development in the body of Christ. In fact, let’s have more, please.
The problem is Overlords. If one particular leader or a select group of leaders do ALL the leading, they effectively replace the Lord. Titles, positions and organizational charts are merely symptomatic. I’ve seen “leaderless” house churches get dominated by quiet manipulation and I’ve seen official authority figures who fostered development and facilitated functional growth among each member of the body.
This ain’t no black or white check the box kind of thing.
Jay, thanks for the mention of John 1:38, where TNIV has “Teacher” for didaskalos as a translation of “Rabbi”. That makes the rendering “Master” in Matthew 23:8 all the more strange.
Bill, I agree with you.
Peter
Praise God. Seems to be a real challenge figuring this stuff out.
“So Jesus clearly spoke here about his disciples ruling,
or at least exercising leadership.”
Clearly??? Sure wish it was clear. Is mud clear?
Just looked up the word clearly in the dictionary.
There was a note which clearly denounces the use of the word clearly.
Thought you might enjoy this.
Exaggerators like this word, along with its cousins
( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like).
Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is
conclusory, and sometimes even exceedingly dubious.
As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it—
clearly and its ilk are ‘weasel words’—that is,
unnecessary words that supposedly intensify the meaning
of a statement, but actually weaken it.
Just how much clearly can weaken a statement
is evident in the following example,
in which the author uses the word to buttress a claim
about his own state of mind:
“Clearly, I am not to be convinced that this is a small matter.”
(Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.)
Much appreciation for your diligence in blogging.
I’m clearly learning lot’s of stuff. { 😉
Praise you Jesus – Just wondering
Peter – Are you a christian leader?
Jay – Are you a christian leader?
TC – Are you a christian leader?
Bill – Are you a christian leader?
How did you know? Who told you?
Love and Peace
Amos, do you want me to go through your comments pointing out all the weasel words and pretending that that means I have won the argument? Clearly (yes that word again!) you have no answer to the substance of my argument and so are resorting to ad hominem attacks. I will not accept this on my blog, so please desist. And no, I am not a Christian leader.
Peter
Sorry if you thought it was an attack. Wasn’t meant to be.
I really went to look up the word clearly in the dictionary
on my computer and that’s what i found.
Hey. I even put a smiley face on it.
And used the word clearly myself. Did you notice?
Amos, sorry if I over-reacted. I accept that you did not intend an attack.
But how would you explain Luke 22:26 with its assumption that some of Jesus’ disciples would be ones who lead?
Peter
Interesting verse. I use the same scripture to show Jesus is
looking for servants, those who will forsake all and lay down
there desire to be great or be someone special.
And let Jesus have the preeminence in all things.
Seems you have your traditions and I have mine.
Help Lord!!!
I usally start in verse Lk 22:24
And there was also a strife among them,
which of them should be accounted the greatest.
So, “strife among them,” “greatest” natural human frailty,
competition and contention, I’m looking to be over you,
to win the argument, to have the recognition from folks.
To be the greatest…
Jesus says, you really want to be the greatest,
no, take the lower place, always, be humble,
here, be like the younger, ( not the elder? Hmmm?)
(God’s ways are not our ways, Higher I think – opposite often.)
(man wants to be high, Jesus wants us to be low.)
You want to be like the chief, the ruler, the leader?
Here, become like me who humbled Himself,
made himself of no reputation, took on the form of a servant.
Refuse being the chief one, a leader, and run from the idea.
Leader – man’s thing. Servant – God’s thing.
Jesus says in verse 27
…I am among you as he that serveth.
Well done thou good and faithful servant. Hmmm?
But I could have missed it. I could be very wrong.
Bear with me. Let me wonder some more.
Could be leaders, I’ve been wrong before. No really I have. 😉
Okay, if Jesus really wants “leaders” in “The Body of Christ?”
Then I have some questions.
How would I recognise a leader? I mean from the Bible.
How would I know who “my” leader is?
Could I have more than one “leader” leading me?
If the leaders disagree then who do I follow?
Is there one, or more than one, leader in a congregation?
How many leaders does a congregation need?
Are there city wide leaders, leading a few congregations?
Or only leading the leaders of the congregations?
Are there leaders who lead a whole country?
Is there one leader for the whole world?
Or multiple world leaders?
Do leaders need to have a leader?
How do leaders know who their leader is?
Is there any leader who doesn’t have a leader?
What does a leader do? How does a leader lead?
Who does a leader lead? All believers or only some believers?
How do you choose a leader, leaders, for the congregation?
Does the denominational “leader” choose the “leaders” of the congregation?
Can I choose “my”own leader?
Does “my” leader get to choose “me,” to be led?
Can I say no if they don’t “lead” correctly?
What can I do if this ”leader” abuses me?
What happens to a “leader” who abuses you?
What can I do if the “leader” is abusing a bretheren?
Who determines if the “leader” is lording it over?
What happens when the “leader” is lording it over?
How many followers does it take to equal one leader?
So we can throw the bum out?
Can we throw the bum out if the corporation is in his name?
Can we throw the bum out if the “leader” is leading people astray?
Who determines if “the leader” is leading people astray?
Can we throw the bum out without the approval of the “leaders”
of the denomination who he went to seminary with?
Does the “leader” plant the church?
Then gets to “lead” bretheren and the other leaders?
Who are the followers?
How does a follower follow properly?
How does a leader know who is supposed to be following?
How does someone know if they are to lead or follow?
See my challenge. I never used to ask questions about leadership.
Just went a long with the program until… Ouch!!! { : o (….
Funny thing about abuse. The abused think they are wrong and deserve it.
They wind up defending and protecting the abuser or abusive system.
For awhile…
The benifit is; the abuse eventually drives you to Jesus.
You ask new questions and get new answers. Praise God. Jesus loves me.
Even Alan Knox admitted in your Blog “Leading or Lording”
“it is not easy to lead without “lording it over” other people,
but Jesus said, “It shall not be so among you.”
The truth is it’s impoosible. leading = lording it over = abuse = always.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Amos, that’s a lot of questions. I’ll answer just one of them:
Part of the answer must be that they look like a slave, like the One who was among them as one who serves. If they don’t look like this, they are not biblical leaders. I guess that implies that Christians shouldn’t follow them.
Amos, if a brother or sister is moving towards Jesus Christ, follow them. Hopefully, on a different day, you can return the favor.
I do like your comment above Bill. It is very much like a piece of advice I once received as a newish christian. Whenever a brother or sister in Christ has blessed you , helped you etc, in some way, then the best way to thank them is by doing the same for someone with a similar need another day.
Thanks, Colin. Yes, Bill, your comment blessed me too. I must find a way to bless others through my blog comments.
Bill
Sounds like wisdom to me.
Sounds like “body ministry” to me.
One day you feed me what the Lord has shown you.
Then one day I share with you what the Lord has shown me.
Then one day we both learn from someone who is just saved a week or two.
God is no respecter of persons. Why should we be?
No one greater, no one lesser. Just brethren learning from God.
Just the Holy Spirit teaching us all truth. Anyway He see’s fit.
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine,
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:26
Everyone participating, no one a spectator, body ministry.
Holy Spirit leading. Jesus being the only master.
The person who thinks they are a “leader” is under tremendous pressure
to lead in a way that benefits the people and is pleasing to his
“denominational leaders”and above all pleasing to his Lord.
Once again burnout.
Trying to please three masters. An impoosible task,
Unless you compromise your own integrity
and learn to play the game.
Peter
“Part of the answer must be that they look like a slave,
like the One who was among them as one who serves.
If they don’t look like this, they are not biblical leaders.
I guess that implies that Christians shouldn’t follow them.”
“Look like a slave.”
Okay – someone with the “Title” “Pastor,”“Reverend.”
On his business card, engraved on the sign on his office door.
His name only on the marqee sign by the road. The Sunday bulletin.
Introduced as Pastor or Reverand so an so, at the local sporting event.
Does that look like a slave? One who serves? Hmmm?
“I guess that implies that Christians shouldn’t follow them”
Jesus said, “My Sheep” hear “MyVoice” and follow me.
Should we follow any man?
Nah! Tried that. Ouch!
Much pain and tears.
The Lord is my shephered, master/leader/teacher,
and the freedom and liberty is wonderful.
Now the Lord is that Spirit:
and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
2Co 3:17
You can follow a man if you like but there is a much better way.
Become a follower of Jesus, hear “His voice” and obey Him only.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
In His Service. By His Grace.
Thank you Jesus.
Amos, I entirely agree with you in criticising
But my point was about a quite different issue, your contention that there should be no leaders in the Body of Christ, that Christians should follow no one at all but Jesus. That is what you say in the last comment, but not consistently because you also commend as wisdom Bill’s dictum “if a brother or sister is moving towards Jesus Christ, follow them”. On this matter I too consider Bill wise.
Peter
Nice to hear that we can be in agreement. Phewwww!
My point is “The traditions of men” make “the word of God” of none effect
and “Titles” cause walls of separation and “Titles” cause new believers to
believe they have to “follow a man” “a leader.”They don’t know they can experience and learn from a living Christ within them from day one.
Jesus can teach anyone at anytime.
I have learned much from those who are considered “the least of these”
and those who are new in the Lord.
From “leaders” I’ve learned deception, disappointment, disgust, etc.etc.
Isn’t that the tradition that is taught in the institutional religious system.
You need a man with a degree in order to explain the Bible, an elder/leader.
Yet, Jesus said He wants to lead and guide and teach.
They shall all be taught of God.
And the Holy spirit will teach you all truth.
The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth.
John the apostle said; You need no man teach you.
I’ve seen many men pay the price of thinking they are “the leader.”
The one’s who really have a heart for Jesus really struggle
with serving so many masters and knowing what the denomination says
is contrary to scripture. Or how their independent pastor friends
run their business (church) and the way they treat the sheep and fleece them.
Be blessed…
Amos, I too have seen the kinds of abuses you have seen. But I have also seen churches without effective leadership wither away and die. “Where there is no vision the people perish.” That is why I believe that churches do need strong leadership, not from those who domineer or love titles but from the kinds of servant leaders which Jesus had in mind, shepherds who lay down their lives for their flocks.
Bless you Peter
You’re one up on me.
Never saw strong leadership that didn’t abuse the sheep eventually.
Most of the men that I know didn’t start out wanting to steal the glory
that only belongs to Jesus.
They Just didn’t refuse it when it came. Then they received honor from men.
When the started to believe the lie.
They started to die.
Titles became idols and
Pastors became masters.
Peace and Joy…
Amos, I agree that this kind of ideal leadership is rare. Indeed only Jesus showed it perfectly. But the answer to imperfect leadership is not to throw out leadership altogether, but to improve it.
Peter
Leadership is dangerous. Very, very, dangerous.
Not only for the sheep;
But also for the one who thinks they are a leader?
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Pr 29:5
A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it;
and a flattering mouth worketh ruin.
Pr 26:28
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
Pr 20:17
Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit?
there is more hope of a fool than of him.
Pr 26:12
For if a man think himself to be something,
when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Ga 6:3
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing,
he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:2
Leadership has destroyed everyone I know
who has tasted of Her bounties.
My advice is to run from it…
Jesus didn’t reform the religious system he established;
He left it…
And called others out into a relationship with Him.
He became their master/leader/teacher.
Amos, I feel deeply for whatever you went through. May I ask if you have brothers and sisters to meet with these days, in a more healthy environment? Or are you still looking?
Bill
Thanks for the concern. Much appreciated.
And I do meet with brothers and sisters
on a regular basis. Thanks for asking.
Most is “where two or three” are gathered,
and small home gatherings.
Leadership and titles are not important and not present.
Just folks coming together in the name of Jesus.
Some are still part of “the religious system”
and believe that is what God would have them do.
You can imagine, with what I believe to be truth,
I’m not very welcomed in the established congregations
in the area. And I’m not intrested in causing trouble.
I’m looking for folks who want to be disciples of Christ
learn to hear “His Voice” and follow Jesus, not man.
Personally, I left “the system” in the early 90’s
and the Lord has always provided fellowship.
Well, not the first two years, pretty lonely then,
just a few friends and mostly getting to know Jesus.
I can say like Paul, “I confered not with flesh and blood.”
Jesus dealt with me about “the traditions of men”
that nullify the word of God.
Most of what I had believed and practiced
was made up by man and not of God.
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus.
Peter – Bill
Have you ever asked Jesus where you have believed;
The Commandments of Men;
The Doctrines of Men;
The Philosophies of Men;
and have missed what Jesus has for you, personnally?
Have you ever asked Jesus about;
“The Traditions of men” that
has made the word of God of none effect in your life?
When you believe the lie, you start to die.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee.
Luke 6:46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord,
and do not the things which I say?
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
1 John 2:26
These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things,
and is truth, and is no lie…
John 18:37
…Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
Peace… Traditions are very, very, dangerous…
When you believe the lie, you start to die.
Amos, I regularly re-evaluate my beliefs in the light of biblical teaching, and I’m sure Bill does too. Please don’t lecture us in terms which imply that we don’t, especially when we have in fact agreed with your main points. You really do seem to have a way of ruining your best arguments by going over the top and alienating your friends. Please don’t make here any more ad hominem comments like your last one.
Peter
Just came across an intresting website about hurting pastors.
And found a lot more sites as well. Seems to be a huge problem.
This is info from a website helping “burned out Pastors.”
PastorCare offers support and encouragement for pastors and their families.
At PastorCare we care about YOU and we want to help.
http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/About_Us.html
According to the Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership (2007)
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 40% report a serious conflict with a parishioner at least once a month.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
According to the Ministering to Ministers Foundation…
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.
• Nearly 1 in 4 pastors experience a forced termination at least once during their ministry.
•Only 54% of pastors go back into full-time church related positions.
If “pastors” and “leaders” (as we see them today) are of God?
He’s not taking very good care of His “shepherd – leaders;” Is He? 😉
Hmmm? Wonder why?
Think we might have a problem?
70% of pastors-leaders are depressed or burnt out. Don’t have a close friend. Hmmm?
That’s who is running the show. “Leadership?”
That’s who is abused and abusing God’s sheep.
I have been both abused and the abuser. It’s not pretty.
1600 pastors a month, that’s 19,000 a year, leave or are pushed out. Wow!!!
That’s a lot of broken hearts, disappointments, feelings of failure, pain, abuse.
Hmmm? “Pastor – Leader,” is this a “Title” or “position” in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor?
Are we causing folks to be a abused by saying we need “Pastor-Leaders?”
Jesus = The Good Shepherd.
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