My post on speaking in tongues seems to have stirred up quite some interest. In addition to several comments and the link from Darrell Pursiful which I mentioned in my first follow-up post, it has attracted links from two Anglican priests on the edge of the charismatic movement, Tim Chesterton and Sam Norton.
Tim, once of Essex but now of Canada, dispels any suggestion that for him charismatic experience was something he enjoyed as a teenager in the 1970s but has now grown out of. In his new post he writes about “words of knowledge”. I didn’t mention in my previous posts that these “words of knowledge” are a major part of the prayer ministry at my church (which, sadly, is not well described at its website). Every Sunday morning before the service a group of us pray together and also wait for God to reveal to us specific prayer needs, such as sicknesses which God wants to heal. These are read out in the service before the final time of worship in song and prayer ministry, to encourage people to come forward for prayer for healing etc.
I don’t personally have such words on a regular basis. But a couple of weeks ago I had a sort of vision of someone with a particular health problem sitting in a particular part of the church. I wasn’t at all sure that this was from God and not just my imagination, but I shared it with the group in a very tentative way. Despite my uncertainty this was read out, there was indeed someone with that problem in that part of the church, and they came out for healing prayer.
Now it took a long time for my church to get to the point where that was acceptable; other churches may need to move gradually in that direction.
Sam, still here in Essex, linked to a recent post of his which I had not read before, about his visit to the New Wine Leadership Conference. It is good to see how he is edging towards a greater acceptance of the charismatic movement. To me, as an evangelical Anglican, the kind of “worship” experience which he criticises is quite normal, but I can see why he as a high churchman found it difficult to accept. And if he can’t take Bill Johnson, I certainly wouldn’t recommend to him Todd Bentley!
But I wonder if there is really “an underlying disparagement of the intellect” and “a division between ‘head and heart'” at New Wine. What I have seen is the opposite, a rejection of the division between ‘head and heart’ which underlies the idolatry of the intellect and disparagement of experience so common in many church circles, together with messages intended to appeal holistically to the whole person, including head and heart. I quoted here before Smith Wigglesworth’s 1947 prophecy that
When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed, the world, has ever seen.
Surely it is this coming together of the Word and the Spirit which New Wine is aiming to achieve. And there are signs that it is beginning to happen.
I’m sure Sam will be happier as a “Charismatic Catholic” than he is in New Wine circles. And I hope on Pentecost Sunday, this Sunday, he will indeed have the courage to carry out his intention to preach about a “release of the spirit”, and that this release becomes not just words or doctrine but a real experience of many in his congregation.
Sam also links to an older autobiographical post of his own, Guarding the Holy Fire, which is long but fascinating. May there be in his parish of Mersea a real visitation of the Holy Spirit, not as an explosive fire which blows itself out (read the post to understand this allusion) but as a long-lasting holy fire which burns up all the rubbish and provides lasting heat and light. Todd Bentley is praying that the revival fire in Florida will light fires all over the world. May this happen even in Mersea, as well as here in Chelmsford. And while I don’t want to wish anything uncomfortable on Sam, he just may find that this revival doesn’t fit his expectations about a proper liturgical setting!
I was interested to see also in this post of Sam’s these words from Marianne Williamson:
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. …
Sam gives the whole quote. These words, as seen in a clip from the film Coach Carter (which in fact cuts the quote to leave out the parts about God), formed the basis of a recent sermon at my church’s youth service. It was certainly a powerful sermon. With the Holy Spirit working in us we are indeed “powerful beyond measure”. But for many of us our deepest fear is of allowing that power to work in us (to continue the Williamson quote)
to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. …
As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.
It is the Holy Spirit who can liberate us from our own fear. May we have the courage to let him do so.
Thanks for the comment on on my blog! That is how I found your blog, and I’m glad I did.
Having come from a dispensational perspective, I realize that there are certain areas of my theology that need some…”tweaking” (to put it mildly). One of these is in the area of the ministry and work of the Holy Spirit.
Thanks for these posts on the tongues. I have subscribed to your blog through bloglines and will now be reading faithfully!
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Hi Peter – thanks for the engagement with my posts. My concern at New Wine was that there was no claim, during the times of worship, upon the mind. That isn’t to denigrate the emotional aspects which I’m comfortable with, I just think we need to worship with all the bits of ourselves – a full meal not just the vegetables. I’m not so sure this is a high church/low church difference either – I’ve since had a lot of conversations with evangelicals who share my concern, and it certainly seems to be something that the ’emergent’ side of evangelicalism is embracing (and elsewhere – are you familiar with John Colwell’s writing?). What excites me is precisely the coming together of streams from the different sides of the church – that’ll be one aspect of the Word and Spirit coming together.
Jeremy, welcome!
Sam, I agree that charismatic “worship” can be a bit “mindless”. I suppose it is an over-reaction to hymns full of doctrine rather than praise, which is surely what a hymn should be. Like you, I like “Blessed be your name” which is a good mix of both sides. In my church we try to use mostly songs which have some content for the mind, although sometimes the more touchy-feely ones slip through. Actually a lot of evangelicals are concerned about this issue, as you say, and it is sad that New Wine made this mistake – but then their conference guests would not expect anything too cerebral. Paul the apostle gave some good advice on principles here in 1 Corinthians 14:14-15, which can surely be applied to contentless songs as well as to tongues.
No, I haven’t read any John Colwell. I guess as an evangelical I would not be likely to buy books with “liturgical” and “sacramental” in their titles, even though the author teaches at a Baptist college.
Peter! Don’t you know that the eighteenth and nineteenth century evangelicals were the first to advocate weekly communions? – long before the Tractarians came along!
Tim, I love communion, just not in a setting which is so formal it can seem dead. This is a great time for experiencing the reality of God (and I don’t mean to locate this in the elements). I regret that in my church, at its monthly communion, we don’t link healing prayer to communion as we should do.
I think, rightly taught and rightly pastored, charismatic worship doesn’t have to be a mindless event in any way but an act of full submission of the heart, mind, and soul to God in worship.
I’m sure you do love communion, Peter. I simply wanted to register my protest against an assumption that an evangelical would have no interest in a book about liturgy or sacraments.
Understood, Tim. Well, I was mostly speaking for myself.
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charismatic “worship” can be a bit “mindless”. I suppose it is an over-reaction to hymns full of doctrine rather than praise, which is surely what a hymn should be.
It is funny how the Spirit works. When our hymns and liturgy get too cerebral, the Spirit comes to mess it up. When we get too touchy-feely, we seek for deeper theology. It’s good to have a balance—books and the Holy Spirit can go together. At least that’s what I strive for.
From your article:
These are read out in the service before the final time of worship in song and prayer ministry, to encourage people to come forward for prayer for healing etc.
I find this statement above interesting. Here is what God’s Holy Word says to do:
James 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
I had a bad medical problem and did this. God kept his word letter perfect as He always does. I have found that He does not vary from His word one iota. I have found this to be true in every facet of His Holy Word.
I Kings chapter 13 is a prime example of what happens to those that change the word of the living God. He says what he means and means what He says. He is a God of love and also of justice. He treasures His word above even His name.
In Christ: Golf Pro
Ken, what makes you think we do anything differently? We simply encourage people who have a particular ailment to come to those of us praying for the sick, who are not in fact all technically elders but are designated for this job by those with the role of elder. These people pray over the sick people and quite often anoint them with oil. And often, not always, they are healed. Prayer for healing is not restricted to those whose ailments are called out, but is open to anyone who seeks healing. And if they are not at a Sunday service they can call for people to pray for them at home.
HOLY LAUGHER, HOLY BARK, HOLY DRUNKARD & ETC.
Holy Laughter, holy bark, holy drunkard and etc. are not found in the book of Acts during the Pentecost. Some Charismatic churches might use the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. from the Old and New Testaments to support these movements. However, bear in mind that the word, leap, laugh, drunkard and etc. are mentioned instead of the full phrase of holy laughter, holy bark and etc. What if these practices are not from the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these practices are from the work of Holy Spirit has caused one to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and it would have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the wrong saying that these are the work of them. However, the Holy Spirit does not do it. One has indeed blaspheme against the Holy Spirit by abusing the name of the Holy Spirit despite he does not do it. The blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgivable according to the New Testament
DEFINITION OF BLASPHEMY IN HEBREWS/GREEK
blas’-fe-mi (blaphemia) in classical Greek and Hebrews means primarily ‘defamation’ or ‘evil-speaking’in general; ‘a word of evil omen’, hence, ‘impious, and irreverent speech against God’. The above is the extract pertaining to the meaning of blasphemy in Greek. Consider carefully about holy bark, holy laugher and etc. For instance, if these are not the work of Holy Spirit, the abusing the name of Holy Spirit by saying that these are the work of Holy Spirit is indeed delivery of irreverent speech against the Holy Spirit. For instance, if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the insisting that these should be directed from the work of the Holy Spirit might have abused the name of the Holy Spirit and caused defamation of its name and one might have in turn grieved the Holy Spirit since these might not be the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit might be ended up to bear the name for the doer of holy bark, holy laugher and etc. What if it has grieved the Holy Spirit by insisting that these are the work of the Holy Spirit, our ignorance has ultimately caused the ultimate abusing and/or blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
HEALINGS IN CONTEMPORARY CHARISMATIC CHURCHES
In miraculous healings among Charismatic churches today, we could easily spot out that many sick will fall down before the healers lay hands on them. However, many sick would remain unhealed after the rally despite they did fall down before the healers, i.e. Pastors that perform miraculous healings. God is definitely powerful and can heal all kinds of sicknesses. However, there is a deficiency in the healings in contemporary Charismatic world. What if the wonders are not the work of the Holy Spirit, the commenting to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit that it is he that does the work might have grieved the Holy Spirit in case if these are not the work of the Holy Spirit and it ends up that one has abused the name of the Holy Spirit and has ultimately blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
ALL BLASPHEMIES WHETHER TOWARDS THE HOLY SPIRIT OR GOD OR JESUS CHRIST ARE TO BE CONSIDERED AS SINS
Matthew 12:31-32, “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the BLASPHEMY AGAINST the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speak against a word the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever SPEAK AGAINST the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.” As the phrase, speak against the Holy Spirit, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, blasphemy against the Spirit, it implies that a person blasphemes against the Holy Spirit even if he speaks against the Holy Spirit. The same for abusing the name of the Holy Spirit in which it might have grieved the Holy Spirit to accept the false saying what if the works are not from the Holy Spirit. The word, forgiven, is mentioned in Matthew 12:31-32 with the phrase, every sin & blasphemy, it implies that all blasphemies are to be considered as sin or else why we should need God’s forgiveness for the blasphemies. The same in abusing God’s or Jesus’ name to support their miracles are from God or Jesus respectively and these are the acts of blasphemies to be considered as sins too.
THE WELL-KNOWN VERSES IN MATTHEW 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you who practise lawlessness!”
What are the elements could be found in these verses above? There are:
1) They believe in Jesus Christ since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many will say to me..’LORD, LORD”. These people must have believed in Jesus Christ or else how they could call Jesus Christ to be their Lord as mentioned above then.
2) These people could use Jesus’ name to perform miracles since Matthew 7:22, “(mentions that) Many…have..prophesied…in your name, cast out demons in your name, and done many wonders in your name?”
3) Will they be accepted by Jesus Christ? Matthew 7:23, “…I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me”.
THE PRIDE AMONG CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES FOR THEIR NON-REPENTANCE
This is my general discovery upon Charismatic churches: Some Charismatic churches might not repent in order to do away their so-called, gift, in the churches due to they feel thieir reputations are most precious than the truth of the Bible and that causes them to persist in the practice. However, bear in mind that the insisting the so-called, gift, in their churches to be the work of the Holy Spirit might cause them to abuse the name of the Holy Spirit and that causes them ultimately to blaspheme against the Holy Spirit what if the miracles are not from the work the Holy Spirit. The act of insisting to defend their reputation more important than the truth of the Bible has indeed violated the great commandment of the Lord. For Matthew 22:37, “(mentions that) Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.” The act of having a high preference for their reputations rather that upholding the truth of the Bible implies that his love towards his own reputation is more significance than his love towards God. For Matthew 22:37 has commanded us to put our love to God first instead of that has to be in replacement of our reputation.
Jonathan, I will allow your essay to stand for once – although I don’t agree with it. But the comments on my posts are not the place to post essays like this which do not respond directly to the post or the previous comments. I suggest you start your own blog (free of charge at wordpress.com) and write things like this there.
Jonathan, since you apparently ignored my previous comment and posted another even longer essay without interacting with the post or previous comments, I am not allowing this new “comment”. If you persist in “commenting” in this way I will take steps to block you from commenting here.