In ongoing discussions about the “outpouring” in Lakeland, Florida a number of people have mentioned as a criticism of Todd Bentley that he talks about an angel called Emma. For the first time this evening I have seen some evidence of this. Ian Matthews lists this as his number one reason for being suspicious of Todd’s ministry, and he gives a link to an article which Todd wrote in 2003. Ian says that Emma
apparently ministers in his revival meetings.
But what does Todd really have to say about Emma? I quote in full the section from the article with the only mentions of Emma:
EMMA, ANGEL OF THE PROPHETIC
Now let me talk about an angelic experience with Emma. Twice Bob Jones asked me about this angel that was in Kansas City in 1980: “Todd, have you ever seen the angel by the name of Emma?” He asked me as if he expected that this angel was appearing to me. Surprised, I said, “Bob, who is Emma?” He told me that Emma was the angel that helped birth and start the whole prophetic movement in Kansas City in the 1980s. She was a mothering-type angel that helped nurture the prophetic as it broke out. Within a few weeks of Bob asking me about Emma, I was in a service in Beulah, North Dakota. In the middle of the service I was in conversation with Ivan and another person when in walks Emma. As I stared at the angel with open eyes, the Lord said, “Here’s Emma.” I’m not kidding. She floated a couple of inches off the floor. It was almost like Kathryn Khulman in those old videos when she wore a white dress and looked like she was gliding across the platform. Emma appeared beautiful and young-about 22 years old-but she was old at the same time. She seemed to carry the wisdom, virtue and grace of Proverbs 31 on her life.
She glided into the room, emitting brilliant light and colors. Emma carried these bags and began pulling gold out of them. Then, as she walked up and down the aisles of the church, she began putting gold dust on people. “God, what is happening?” I asked. The Lord answered: “She is releasing the gold, which is both the revelation and the financial breakthrough that I am bringing into this church. I want you to prophecy that Emma showed up in this service-the same angel that appeared in Kansas city-as a sign that I am endorsing and releasing a prophetic spirit in the church.” See, when angels come, they always come for a reason; we need to actually ask God what the purpose is. Within three weeks of that visitation, the church had given me the biggest offering I had ever received to that point in my ministry. Thousands of dollars! Thousands! Even though the entire community consisted of only three thousand people, weeks after I left the church the pastor testified that the church offerings had either doubled or tripled.
During this visitation the pastor’s wife (it was an AOG church) got totally whacked by the Holy Ghost- she began running around barking like a dog or squawking like a chicken as a powerful prophetic spirit came on her. Also, as this prophetic anointing came on her, she started getting phone numbers of complete strangers and calling them up on the telephone and prophesying over them. She would tell them that God gave her their telephone number and then would give them words of knowledge. Complete strangers. Then angels started showing up in the church.
I believe Emma released a financial and prophetic anointing in that place. That was the first angel that I have ever seen in the form of a woman. Some angels I’ve seen seemed like they were neither male nor female. However, Emma appeared as a woman who was like a Deborah, like a mother in Zion. When she came, she began to mentor, nurture and opened up a prophetic well. The people in the church began having trances and visions and the pastor began getting words of knowledge and moving in healing. That congregation also saw more financial breakthrough than they had ever seen before.
What can we make of this? First, Todd, as quite a young Christian, was told about Emma by the respected leader Bob Jones. Soon after this Todd saw a vision which he understood to be this same Emma. So if this is an error, it is Bob’s error, only taken on second hand by Todd. This is the same Bob Jones who last week prophesied over Trevor Baker in the YouTube clip which I linked to before.
Second, this angel is seen to distribute gold dust. But I note that this is a vision of an angel, and presumably the gold dust is also visionary, not literal. In the vision it is clearly symbolic of the generosity which came to this congregation leading them to make a large offering. So there is no call for the mockery I have seen that people should collect the gold dust to raise money for the poor. In fact it seems that Todd’s meetings bring in plenty of money for his work for the poor quite apart from the gold dust.
Third, it is an unwarranted generalisation to write that Emma “apparently ministers in his revival meetings” on the basis of an account of just one occasion when she turned up at a meeting. There is no indication that Todd ever saw her again. I have seen no suggestion that she has been reported as ministering at Lakeland.
So, what is the issue here which has made this such a stumbling block for Ian and others? Is it the idea that angels have names? But that is biblical: the angels Michael and Gabriel are named in Scripture. Is it the apparently modern form of this angel’s name? Well, Emma is a modern name I think, but it might well be an adaptation of the Hebrew word AMMA, which means “cubit”, or AMA “female servant”, both of which would be appropriate names for an angel – “cubit” being suitable for the measuring angel of Ezekiel 40-47 and Revelation 21. Or is the problem that this angel is apparently female? Well, I accept that there may be no explicitly female angels in the Bible, but arguments from silence like that are very dangerous. Or perhaps the problem is simply that Todd is seeing angels at all? But since the apostles, Philip, Cornelius, Peter and Paul did (Acts 5:19, 8:26, 10:3, 12:7, 27:23), why shouldn’t Todd?
Of course the underlying issue here may be that Todd is claiming in any way at all to hear from God and to be in touch with the spiritual realm. For Bible deists that is of course a problem, and maybe that is Ian’s real problem. I took the term “Bible deist” from Jack Deere’s book Surprised by the Voice of God, in which, as I wrote then, Deere
explains how he moved from the position that God speaks only through the Bible to an expectation that God speaks to his people today, if only they will listen to him.
So, does Ian reject (in the words of his second objection to Todd) because of
The Gnostic overtones of special knowledge and revelation
any claim to hear God, or only Todd’s claim? If only Todd’s, what makes him special? If any such claim, then is Ian declaring himself a cessationist and Bible deist? If so, this seems to sit oddly with one of the core values of his church:
We are open to the renewing, empowering and transforming work of God the Holy Spirit.
Surely anyone who is truly open in this laudable way will be open to the possibility that God is really speaking to and through Todd Bentley.
As for Ian’s last objection,
The seeking after ‘blessings’ – it seems to distract from the ‘business’ of being the body of Christ to a needy world
– I have more sympathy here. There certainly are some blessing and revival junkies making a lot of this just for themselves. Todd can’t stop them turning up, but he doesn’t encourage them. What he does encourage is people visiting Lakeland and then taking his anointing back to their home churches. This is certainly happening in some places. This anointing is intended to equip Christians to be more effective as the body of Christ to a needy world. So let’s stop carping about it and seek the equipping for ministry which God is offering.
I have seen the utube of Todd in action and would not be such a skeptic if I saw the healing gifts being taken to a home for the mentally retarded and severely physically disabled. Why do folks with healing ministries never heal the folk at these places? I would like to see a home for people such as that emptied out for the glory of God. I get sketical when an angel manifests and is called by name, I wonder who is getting the glory? Where is the emphasis? To me this is dangerous ground.
I always wonder too why I never hear about any “modern day” healing ministries going into hospitals and healing the sick.
Here’s another insightful comment from the blogosphere:
http://deconstructedchristian.wordpress.com/2008/05/21/an-unequal-blessing/
“How could a just God who cares equally for every person in the world expend gold dust, supernatural gemstones, gold fillings and spiritual laughter experiences on those who are in the top 1% in the world wealth stakes and ignore the malnourished, the poverty-stricken, the widows, the orphans…”
(I would disagree slightly – people in the USA or UK are probably more like the top 0.01%).
He might do that, if it then motivates them to go to the other 99%…
I once heard Jackie Pullinger speak powerfully at a Vineyard Conference around the time when making a pilgrimage to Toronto was the thing to do. She said something like “everyone wants to go to the laughing – when will they also go to the dying”.
How about it, Peter? Since you were so keen to drive to Dudley and back, are you also going to spend at least a similar amount of time ministering to the homeless and drug addicts of Chelmsford?
What will Todd Bentley do? Donations to his ministry are undoubtedly skyrocketing.
If God is bringing a “financial breakthrough” on the church, we’d better think very carefully about what he wants us to do with the money.
Hey, if you buy into the Emma fraud, here’s an even bigger one you might enjoy:
“…Since the apparitions began in 1981, millions of people of all faiths, from all over the world, have visited Medjugorje and have left spiritually strengthened and renewed. Countless unbelievers and physically or mentally afflicted, have been converted and healed. You owe it to yourself and your loved ones, to investigate with an open mind and heart the events which are occurring in Medjugorje…”
http://www.medjugorje.org/
I am aghast and agog that you people are so gullible at this stage of history! We are in the middle of an information age and the world is still so deeply mired in religious superstition… it is a crying shame.
Don’t you realize that you are being had by shameless preachers? They are thieves.. PERIOD. There is no “angel” named “EMMA” dropping gold dust to bring a bigger offering to this lying bag of hot air.
And the reason that documented miraculous healings do not exist is NOT because people think it is “worldly” to provide documentation!
Come on! Get real!
YEOW!
Bill Ross
http://bibleshockers.blogspot.com
>>And the reason that documented miraculous healings do not exist is NOT because people think it is “worldly” to provide documentation!<<
Bill, you haven’t been watching the revival meetings, have you? Todd requests documentation from people claiming healings.
I’ve been healed several times and don’t think it’s worldly in the slightest to go to the doctor. (When God healed me of a genetic joint disease, the doctor nearly fainted when I came in sans braces and cane and showed her that my joints no longer dislocate!)
As for there being no angel named Emma… prove it biblically, not emotionally.
CharismaticSceptic, have you any idea what Todd Bentley has been doing for most of the last ten years? Do you know anything about his huge meetings in Africa etc? Or did you just make an assumption that he only ministers to the rich western world? And how can 300 million or so people in the USA and the UK be the top 0.01% of 6 billion, or whatever the latest figures are? Let’s take 5% as the lowest figure you can reasonably go for.
And how do you know how much time I spend or don’t spend ministering to the homeless and drug addicts in Chelmsford? Are you jumping to conclusions there as well? Another time I will write something about how I do minister to those at the bottom of the local pile.
Pam and Rhea, it is indeed a good question why Todd and others like him don’t minister in hospitals and homes for the chronically sick. But one aspect of this question is, would they be welcome? It would be morally wrong to do so, on more than an occasional individual basis, without permission from the management. And would the management give permission, especially if there is a danger that they will lose their patients and so their income? These issues are not so simple! And they are faced by people I know who are official hospital chaplains, who would get into trouble if they prayed for healing in any general way. Todd would also say that people need to want to be healed – indeed I was just reading his stories about people who were healed, but decided they didn’t really want to be, and so lost their healing.
Kathi, thanks for your testimony.
Kathi
Ian, see my reply to CharismaticSceptic posted just before your comment. See also my post about the Burma and China situations. The poor and natural disaster victims are always with us. Does that mean God is not allowed to act in other ways? Indeed it doesn’t make sense, but this is not a matter of western selfishness but of the inscrutability of God’s ways which are beyond our understanding.
I found the quotation following on Wikipedia about Todd Bentley. This explain why scholars are confusing about the authorship of Hebreu.
Des.
More recently, Todd stated that in one of his “Third Heaven” trips he literally visited the small cabin where the apostle Paul lives in Heaven. Paul told him that he wrote the book of Hebrews with the personal help of Abraham the Patriarch: “The authorship isn’t clear because it was Abraham and I; Abraham shared the content with me.” Todd’s ‘Third Heaven’ tales are full of such astonishing claims – and of course, more angels. This of course, is considered controversial since Scripture prohibits any contact with the dead, saved or not.
Desmond, thanks for the link, which is here. I agree that deliberate contact with the dead is prohibited by Scripture. I guess Todd would say that this was not something he was seeking. But maybe this was simply a case of his flesh getting in the way. I don’t know.
I followed the link to this article about the “Florida Healing Outpouring” which, interestingly enough, gives several links to secular media reports of the events. See for example this report, which is carefully balanced.
Thank you.
Do you think
“Paul told him that he wrote the book of Hebrews with the personal help of Abraham the Patriarch: “The authorship isn’t clear because it was Abraham and I; Abraham shared the content with me.”
That Abraham and Paul wrote Hebrews?
Des.
Happy Birthday
Young Man
Gentle Wisdom
Blessings Always!
Kurk, thanks for the birthday greetings – actually for tomorrow.
Desmond, I don’t think Abraham and Paul wrote Hebrews. I would not like to rule out that Paul wrote with a co-author and that explains the very different style from the undisputed letters of Paul. But Abraham (come back to life?) seems an unlikely co-author. Also I would not expect God to reveal this kind of information about authorship in this way, but that is up to God. I think this is more likely to be a case (if genuine, you don’t give a link) where Todd Bentley made a mistake. I have never said he is infallible.
I need to correct a typo, I meant to write ‘his Harleys’, not Harley. This whole thing is just really a head shaker for me. How could anybody be so gullible as to swallow all this stuff, I mean really”
I think that my biggest concern with the whole “angel Emma” thing is that it takes the focus off Jesus, no? And shouldn’t angels be putting the focus back ON Jesus, and not taking it away from Him??? To me, this is the real issue with all of this, is it not?
Louis, I am deleting your first comment because it is libellous, as well as blasphemous.
Rhea, I take your point. Too much focus on angels takes the focus off Jesus. But does Todd in fact focus too much on angels? Yes, he wrote that one article on angels. Is that wrong? But he has also written plenty about Jesus and the other members of the Holy Trinity. He has not been saying a lot about angels at Lakeland, and that is good. Maybe he is learning a better balance in his teaching.
Is not, pete. I think maybe you just didn’t like it. But whatever, I’ll be praying for you in love.
Peter,
Thank you, you are very clear.
“I think this is more likely to be a case (if genuine, you don’t give a link) where Todd Bentley made a mistake. I have never said he is infallible”.
How can I tell what are his mistakes and what correct?
Des.
Des, all I can say is, you have to weigh and discern Todd’s words in the same way as any other preacher’s, any other human speaker’s. But try to do that without ascribing to him wrong motives, as so many commenters have been quick to do on no basis at all. Like all of us, Todd makes genuine mistakes, but that does not make him an evil deceiver.
Peter
Just to clarify, I am not a cessationist, but neither would I comfortably describe myself as a Charismatic, in that my theology is not centred on, and doesn’t need defining by, the miraculous evidence of God. I would probably described myself as a non-cessationist on this issue, but not as a defining label. I object to the idea that the miraculous is limited to (or at least focussed upon) gatherings of Charismatics in big rooms, prominent speakers/leaders, and an emphasis upon ‘catching’ something or ‘releasing’ something – this is not language I see in scripture.
To be fair, I said ‘apparently ministers in his revival meetings’, not exactly a blanket statement. Also, my reference to Gnosticism is not a blanket refutation of prophecy, but of the idea that God chooses some people, takes them up to heaven , reveals something special to be dispensed here on earth – as seen by Rick Joiner, Jesse Duplantis, Todd Bentley, Kansas City Prophets etc. Also, the idea of end-time super apostles, as referred to by Todd Bentley, Rick Joiner and others also hints at a ‘special’ knowledge which is symptomatic of Gnostic influence,
I see much more of the miracle working of God in two close friends seeking God’s healing, caring for a needy neighbour, someone giving their lives in the service of the drug addict and prostitute in the inner-cities, someone living undercover in a muslim country etc. I am just not sure what benefit there is in gathering for ‘revival’ meetings such as this when we already know what we need to do.
Also, so you accept that Todd may be wrong on Emma, and that he is wrong to claim to have talked with Paul about the Hebrews letter (there was a link here but he seems to have removed it – some of the preview tools still show how the page looked: http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Act=read&status=teaching&Id=188&pid=954&bid=955), so how wrong (like seriously wrong, unbiblical, not just a disagreement over practice) does it need to be?
Thank you, Ian. Your comment is helpful, and I understand you better now.
I agree that we need to see God through working in difficult circumstances like you mention. Indeed I have done such work in various ways on and off for a number of years. But I struggled through those times partly because I did not have the close relationship with God that I needed and had unmet spiritual and psychological needs. Recently God in his grace has restored my relationship with him and met many of my needs. If a revival helps to meet those needs in Christians, as well as their health needs, it equips them better to go back into difficult situations. It also empowers them to pray for the people they meet in those situations and see real changes. Surely this justifies the Christians taking time out of their difficult situations to get fired up at a revival.
If Todd has removed the link to his alleged chat with Paul about Hebrews, it may be that he has realised that this is a bit dodgy and no longer wishes to stand by this bit of his past. If so, he should be given the chance to do so.
Peter,
“Des, all I can say is, you have to weigh and discern Todd’s words in the same way as any other preacher’s, any other human speaker’s”
Like the Bereans in Actes should I search the scriptures to see if these things are so?
Des
Indeed, Des. Look at what happened when Jesus and the apostles were healing, and see if what Todd does is similar in principle. On the other hand, we shouldn’t expect to find every detail in Scriptural examples, because our society differs (don’t be surprised not to find worship bands, microphones and worldwide TV coverage in Scripture!) and because God does not restrict himself to do only what he has done before.
Peter,
I thank you for the depth of wisdom and obvious priority for truth. As I have researching what all is being said, I have not found a more thorough and well thought voice,..much integrity. Thank you for your stand for truth. Greatly appreciated!
Peter, I responded to you at 42, it didn’t get past the filter.
Re: health/wealth
Bentley is a good friend of the Strader family – here is a 1999 article from US Christian News and may be more palatable for you than traditional media.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/lewd.html
Re: Revenue Canada.
Here you go.
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/charities/menu-e.html
Name: Fresh Fire Ministries
Category: 47
BN: 880636428 RR000l
Thank you, Roxanna.
And thank you, Bene. I thought for a minute you had found a link accusing Bentley’s associate Stephen Strader of “lewd acts”. But no. In fact another Mr Strader of Lakeland was convicted, not of lewd acts but of financial wrongdoings. Maybe Dan and Stephen are related, but that does not make them responsible for one another’s crimes.
You could probably have given me this direct link to the financial information about Fresh Fire Ministries, for 2006 which is the most recent listed. Let’s clarify a few points. Fresh Fire employed on average 25 full time and 5 part time employees. The five highest paid employees received $40,000-$79,999 – there is no claim that only five employees are in this salary bracket. The expenditure on “Salaries, wages, benefits, and honoraria” was $1,182,328, i.e. $47,293 for each of the full time employees if the part-timers are ignored. This may sound a lot by British church standards, but it is openly declared and hardly a matter of financial wrongdoing. The total gift income is a little over $2 million. I am a little concerned at the management and administration expenditure of $863,131. But I see nothing in these accounts to even hint at any irregularity. Of course if there were any wrongdoing it would be carefully hidden from the Canada Revenue Agency, and accessible only to qualified auditors working from full accounts, not to an amateur like me working from this summary.
I agree that churches and para-church ministries should make their accounts public, if only to take the sting out of accusations like this one. But it seems that when they do, as Fresh Fire has done, that is also distorted and used against them. Sometimes you can’t win.
I have just returned from four days at Lakeland in case that may be helpful to anyone who truly has questions. I know I did, and my husband and I had been in minstry over twenty years,..my husband a true student of the word.
But the help I received was undeniable and very much needed.
Peter,
“and because God does not restrict himself to do only what he has done before”.
God does not change – ” I am the Lord I do not change”. Jesus is “the same yesterday, today and for ever”.
So we should not expect God to act completely differently from the past i.e. the 2000 + years of history in the bible should give us a guide.
If we find some one who claimes God is acting differently in principle from the past, then that some one is not talking about the Lord but about some other god, either from that persons imagination or worse.
Various sects have claim a change e.g Mormons, JWs
and many cults. Sadly some Charismaniacs also.
Because God is completely consistent that is why Paul can say such things as:
Gal 1:8-9
“But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”
Note that even Angels are able, I assume, to preach another Gospel!!
This because:
2 Cor 11:13-14
“For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”
i.e. the evil one masquerades as an Angel of Light.
So we must check even so called ‘Angel announcements’ to see if they are right.
We must also check those who would call themselves prophets etc
Matthew 24:10-11
“At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.”
Also Mark 13:22
“For false Christs and false PROPHETS will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.”
So we should not judge by the signs and wonders, and go chasing after them, for they can be produce by false prophets.
Jesus gave us a new commandment.
John 13:34-35
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
The new newness of this commandment lies in the
“As I have loved you, so you must love one another”
because the love of the neighbour is already found in the Old Testament.
This is why in John 15:12-13 Jesus says
“My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”
We must be prepared to lay down our lives for our bretheren i.e love them as he loved us, and also take up our cross to follow him.
Men will know we are His dicsiples because we love one another.
“By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
it is not signs and wonders that are the mark of the Christian community – for these can be fake- and indeed many other religions boast them e.g Hinduism.
The mark of the Christian community is the loving of our brothers and sisters, even if we have to die for them, that is most Christ like.
That cannot be faked.
Des.
Des, I do not “expect God to act completely differently from the past”. He is not doing so through Todd Bentley. He is doing things the same in principle as he has been doing regularly through the centuries, although often rejected by the mainstream church. Indeed we need to check out preachers. And it is by their fruits that we will know them in the long term, which of course include love. It is perhaps too early to be sure about these fruits with Todd Bentley, but we should refrain from condemning him before the fruits have had time to ripen. Meanwhile we can only judge on whether he is preaching a different gospel or deceiving anyone – he is not!
Peter,
I know very little about Todd and I am not in a position to make any comments about him.
What is your interest/involvement with him?
Des.
Des, I think you need to read through all my posts about Todd, especially this one about my only close encounter with what is happening.
WOW!! Amazing how this brings out everyone’s views. Interesting.
Happy birthday, by the way.
Right…. here we go….
What do Angels do in Revelation? Sing “Holy” round the throne of God. It’s what they do, they point to God and glorify Him. You get something else, it isn’t angelic.
As for the ‘why does God only seem to bless rich westerners, when so many people are poor?’ Peter’s post was on the nail. The west has to shoulder part of the blame, but as Jesus said, we will always have the poor. Does the presence of the poor exclude the possibility of blessings for others – no, by no means, otherwise we are truly bereft. The poor exist because of so many circumstances, but what are WE, THE CHURCH here for, if not for Others, be they rich or poor or whatever. We all stand in need of grace, every day.
I’ve been reading Isaiah. Chapters 58-59 and around there left me with tears – what do I do to break the chains of injustice where I live and work? How do any of us compare with what God wants of each of us.
I do not want to sound condemnatory – I am aware of my own need of grace – but I ask why we so often get so worked up over what is, in reality, POINTLESS TALK. Why does the church get such a bad press? Could it be that the truth of what we belive has been overtaken by a propensity for self-righteousness, infighting, denominationalism, heathen-bashing and such. I’ve been guilty of this. Let judgement begin with the church.
“Behold” – God certainly does “a new thing”. But it is a new expression of an eternal and unchanging God. Everyt time something new has happened in the life of the universal church, other Christians have mocked and slandered it – Wesley, the Salvation Army, the charismatic movement, the list goes on. Let’s keep hold of what we know to be true – the Word of God (ie. the truth brought alive [only] by the Holy Spirit). Then we will be able to get on with God’s perfect and pleasing will.
Peter,
“And it is by their fruits that we will know them in the long term, which of course include love.”
Love is at the center, not just an inclusion- everything else is at the edges.
In 1 Cor ch 12-14 – The great discussion of charismatic gifts at the end of ch 12 he says I show you an even better way and follows it by
Ch 13
“For even though I speak with tongues of men and of angels but have not love ‘I am a waste of space'” my paraphrase.
It is only love that gives validity to the gifts of the Spirit.
At the start of Ch 14 he says ‘seek the best gifts but pursue Love’ i.e go no pursuing love.
John reminds us in 1 John that God is Love.
And the 2 great commandments to Love God and our neighbour are the greatest.
The world cries out for Love in one form or another – just think of all the songs devoted to love. People long to be loved and thus affirmed.
If the church reflected what Jesus said “this is how all men will know you are my disciples because you love one another” (in the same way God loves us) – if the church was the community of Love, I doubt if we could build doors strong enough to keep people out.
We are however not at all good at this Love.
Chasing after signs and wonders is not the answer, -there were people in the New Testament who looked for sign – but jesus wouldn’t give them one – for what is extraordinary today tomorrow becomes mundane, so something more extreme is demanded which in turn becomes mundane etc. so an even greater fix is needed – and there are always those ready to exploit our need for something more extrordinary – until at last disillusionment can set in.
Whereas we shall never become loving enough this side of eternity, no matter how much we pursue it.
Des.
Indeed, Des, love is at the centre and signs and wonders without them are “a waste of space”. But why are you writing this on this thread about Todd Bentley? Are you suggesting that he is somehow deficient in love? If so, please clarify this. If not, if you are just preaching a generalised sermon, please do so elsewhere. If you start your own blog and post a link to it here, I will accept that. But otherwise I want comments here to be relevant to Todd Bentley and what he has to say about angels.
I gotta say (and I do love my Peter Kirk—and I do believe that the gifts are for today), but hearing the story about Emma sent chills down my spine, and, er, not in a good way.
Btw, according to people that I know who have bought into this whole thing, the gold dust (and the gems) are real (or that’s what they say, that they have a collection of these gems, etc). My requests for having it lab verified are treated as if I am scoffing. I don’t say it’s scoffing, because I’m not, but rather asking a valid question.
Another question that I can’t get out of my mind: Christian brothers and sisters are dying all over the world of poverty, war, and famine, and God decides to visit a very carnal America with, um, wealth? It’s a good thing to muse over.
I resent being treated as if I’m faithless because I want to test the spirits. Prophets should be judged by the prophets, not get huffy or make charges of “faithless” if someone seeks to make sure God is truly at work.
My 2 cents. 🙂
Thanks, Molly. Yes, I have heard of people who take the gold dust and gems literally, and have seen photos. I am not convinced. Yes, it would be good to have them verified, as the wine Jesus made was verified by an expert toastmaster. Anyway, they are hardly intended as wealth, more as symbols of God’s love, and I expect if someone tried to sell them for a profit they would soon go the way of the stored up manna.
But I don’t know that Todd Bentley is into this stuff, at least not currently in Lakeland, so I cannot take this as a reason to reject him.
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Angels are nothing new. Christians since the early church fathers and many Catholic mystics have seen angels. Skeptics just doubt the existence of angels today because it doesn’t seem to fit the post-modern theological framework.
Well said, Kevin. The only thing remotely new here, in the context of the history of mysticism, is the name Emma. Even the concept of named angels is not new, there are plenty of named angels in church history. Actually I think angels fit post-modernism better than modernism; at least someone with a post-modern framework would not condemn another person for seeing angels, but would just say that the angel is true for them but not for me.
I would highly recommend the book called THE FAITH HEALERS by James Randi.All these claims of gold teeth,gold dust.gold fillings,they are all untrue.When someone tries to prove that these things have occured,you would be shocked to see how fast it all falls apart.No proof whatsoever.Testimonies are a dime a dozen.Why woulny God just put a persons teeth back to their original natural state,if he was going to give them amiracle,anyways?The truth is,alot of people never really look deep in their mouths to see what fillings they may or may not have.Then the faith healer shines a dim little yellowish penlight in their mouth,proclaims a miracle,and everyone starts praising God.But back at the dentists,you will find out that they already had those fillings,and they certainly are not gold.One guy even pointed out that the fillings are csoss shaped,but the truth is that is the shape dentists use ,because it makes it hold stronger!
Peter,
My comment about collecting the wealth wasn’t mockery, but a (hopefully serious) challenge to the mindest surrounding some of this.
I’ve been challenged that it’s a comment that Judas might make, as when precious perfume were poured over Jesus’ feet. I want to hear that, and the manna illustration you use. However these seem to me to be entirely diferent occurrences.
In the example of the precious perfume – this was poured out by a person as an offering to Jesus. Are we really suggesting that God is worshipping us?
As for manna – the Jews did indeed collect it and put it to good use. They gathered it up and ate it! If God is (as some have sriously suggested) really giving gold and jewels, then gather it up and use it. If you have wealth, you really don’t need more – so give it away, and if that means you have to convert it to hard cash then sell it (maybe just arrange the deal before sundown..)
Grace and peace,
Jonathan
I have read this article as well as every post on this site. I have been watching the revival meetings on God.tv frequently. As a person who is usually skeptical of ‘moves’ of God, I must say that I don’t believe Todd Bentley’s ministry to be fake. Time will prove whether the healings are legitimate, but I find it troubling that so many people in the church can see how desolate America and the world are becoming and yet refuse to see that God would actually bring revival to His church. Revival means to ‘revive’ someone, and frankly, with the church under constant attack from the enemy in these last days due to sickness, disease, poverty, persecution, and deception, why wouldn’t God want to build up the faith of His church through healing, miracle, signs and wonders?
So much strength is being exhausted on whether or not Todd Bentley is for real. But all I see from this man is a humble, hungry heart that is seeking to manifest the very promises of God for His church so that we, the body, can take back the Kingdom of Heaven by force. Our kingdom has suffered enough violence, when will we stop cowering at the devil with friendly meetings, and faithless living, and start stepping out in faith that God is still in the miracle working business? United we stand, divided we fall.
Hello Peter,
Sorry if I upset you with my last post. I did not mena to preach.
I have researched a bit more about Todd
Todd does seem to be talking about Angels.
Please see the blogg below – video on it.
You may make what you like of what the blogger says.
http://foveo.multiply.com/journal/item/11/Todd_Bentley_do_you_really_trust_this_man_to_pray_over_you
He appears to me to be off his head.
Des.
Peter,
Here the Holy Spirit tells Todd to kick a woman in the face and attack a Chinese. Help!!
Is thsi blasphemeing?
He is definitely nuts.
Des
Jonathan, the point about the manna was that it was to be used but not stored up. But I was reminded yesterday of 2 Kings 4:1-7 where God’s miraculous provision was intended for financial benefit, to pay off a debt and more. So it is possible that gold dust from heaven could be collected and sold, if the quantities are actually significant. But I suspect that the quantities are never significant, that this is actually more symbolic of God’s blessing.
Ashanda, thanks for making a good point. Indeed the church in America, and here in England, is in desperate need of revival!
Des, if this “Foveo” has rejected Toronto, I’m not surprised that he is rejecting Lakeland. I wonder, would he reject Jesus if he came again with his healing and preaching ministry? Or, more seriously, will he reject Jesus when he comes again and doesn’t fit “Foveo”‘s preconceptions?
Hi Peter,
I don’t know who Foveo is and did not suggest he was right, but you don’t comment on the video clips.
Do you think the Holy Spirit tells anybody to give someone healing by kicking them in the face?
Des
Des, is it up to you or me to say what the Holy Spirit is allowed to tell someone? Have you ever heard of the sovereignty of God? Have you never thought that the Holy Spirit might know better than you do what that particular person needed at that time?
As for the video, well, Todd (some years ago, from the hair and lack of tattoos) had a visionary experience. Big deal! Lots of good Christians, including apostles, have had visions. And concerning God’s supposed words “I have not got 40 years to raise up an army”, are we complaining because God wants to get on with the process of evangelising the world and saving the people who will die in their sins during the next 40 years if the army is not raised up?
Peter,
It seem to me that you are saying so long as anyone puts “The Holy Spirit said” before any kind of nonsense they become immune to any assessment of what they are saying, and you throw your bain and scripture – which God gave us – out of the window.
You seem to have been impressed by the signs and wonders – remember Jesus said “Many will say in that day, Lord Lord did we not do many great works in your name – He will say I never knew you depart from me you workers of iniquity”
“In the last days there will be many false prophets who will do signs and wonders and who will deceive even the elect if that were possible”
Chrisitanity is not primarily about signs and wonders it is about love, righteousness and justice.
Come on Peter get your brain in gear, look at scripture and let’s have some proper discernment.
Des.
OK, Des, let’s look at scripture and find if there is anything which Todd has done which does not have scriptural precedent, at least in its general principles. Include among the potential precedents the bizarre things which God told Ezekiel and other prophets to do, and the visions which they and the apostles had. When you find some convincing examples, let me know.
Of course, when someone claims to have heard from the Holy Spirit, it is right to discern carefully whether it actually could be. I see no objective reason for saying that this is not what the Holy Spirit has said, only people like you showing clearly their presuppositions about what they expect the Holy Spirit to say. That does not in itself prove that they are genuine, but…
Amen! If Todd’s signs and wonders (which are actually a small part of his message) don’t bring about love, righteousness and justice, they are empty. I note that you missed out from your quotations “By their fruit you will know them”. I see good fruit from the Lakeland experience. And it is that, more than the signs and wonders, which convinces me that this is a move of God.
Peter,
What fruit are you suggesting
Des
Des, people being brought closer to God, their relationship with him being renewed, as seen in new commitment to evangelism and in the fruit of the Spirit as in Galatians 5:22-23 in their life. No, I can’t document this in detail, but I do see the signs. And I see the contrast with those who reject Todd’s ministry who seem from so many of the comments I have read to be characterised by the opposite of the fruit of the Spirit, such as enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy (Galatians 5:20-21).
Okay, I was raised a Baptist/Cessationist and Todd Bentley’s messages have changed my life. The first couple of weeks of watching God TV I thought this stuff was nuts!! I wrote my pastor and asked him if he really wanted to associate with Todd Bentley as his name had been brought up in church a few times (I now attend a Vineyard church.)
I kept doing research and watching and I have to say that I just can’t get enough God (not Todd ) these days!! My relationship with God is so on fire these days! I listen to several different pastors all day.
Todd Bentley in his sermons gives all the glory to Jesus. The Pharisees accused Jesus of driving out demons with the power of demons. Let us remember that “a house divided cannot stand.”
People thought Jesus was crazy and they killed Him.
I feel the Lord asking me, “Do you want to continue only learning about Me? Or do you want to experience Me?
God desires to give good gifts to His kids!
Way to Go, Peter…sticking up for someone brave enough to do what Jesus commanded (heal the sick, cleanse the leper, raise the dead!)
God had given me wisdom about the angel Emma. I had my questions about that. I’ve been listening to Todd for 2 years give or take. I just really wasn’t sure about somethings. So I asked God about Emma and He said, look at what the message given is, not what the messenger looks like. I asked this just a few days ago.
God is so cool, yesterday the Lord lead me to this passage of scripture. You have to understand, I’ve been reading the bible through and studying the bible for over 30 years and I don’t ever remember seeing this scripture. So this was definitely one of those God things 🙂
Zechariah 5:9 Then I looked up and saw two women flying toward us, with wings gliding on the wind. Their wings were like those of a stork, and they picked up the basket and flew with it into the sky.
Misty, thanks for your testimony and your encouragement.
Robin, thanks for this verse confirming that there are angels or something very similar which at least appear to be female. I don’t know if angels have any real gender differences but they do seem to have in their appearance to humans.
I have to admit I have been suspicious of Bentley for a while. I don’t like to criticize so I won’t. All I know is I was at Bethel Church in Redding and Todd B. prayed for us over the phone. It was powerful…truly powerful. I am reminded that people like William Branham and J.A. Dowie started off well, but then had some issues that disgraced their ministries. My hope and prayer is that the Lord would protect Todd and those he leads from the same traps. I am not anti-angel, nor do I think it is un-scriptural to see angels…but Todd’s story about Emma makes me uncomfortable.
I just read this…I think it will help!
http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=1059&pid=993
hi – i live in new zealand, and am involved in a blog community that is very much talking about lakeland and todd bentley. i found your post really helpful as i weigh up the differeing opionions as i seek God. i long for revival in our nation and in the world and so am always excited to see God move in the world, and tin this day of youtube and the net while things are locationaly they are also international.
i’ve read a really negative interpretation/opinion of the very exact article you spoke about and so did find your post gentle and balanced. thanks.
Thank you, Peter, for your wisdom and support of Todd Bentley. My family and I live in South Africa and have been ignited with a new, fresh zeal to follow our Resurrected King, Christ Jesus. Whilst watching a Lakeand meeting about 8 days ago the Lord – through the airwaves, touched my mom who was lying down in her bedroom – from the tv in our livingroom the healing word came – she felt two hands hold her neck and she ‘felt’ the release as her neck pain went – not to return todate. The meetings are alive unto God – anointing has come through the airwaves with absolute assurance of the Presence of Jesus and His power. NOTHING and NOBODY will change my mind – Jesus IS ALIVE TODAY and He works through His willing and available vessels – those who, like Todd, have given and sacrificed far more than these religeous (and heathen) critics who obviously have never encountered the LIVING CHRIST. To HIM BE THE GLORY.
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Rick, Claire and Cristine, thanks for your helpful comments. This is truly a worldwide move of God.
Rick, thanks especially for the link to the article. I have read it and written a new post about it. In it Todd deals thoroughly with the issue of the angel called Emma and various other contentious matters, and gives a general and important defence of his ministry.
Bentley Explains: On June 8, 2008, Todd Bentley posted on his ministry’s website a detailed letter explaining a number of things that people are confused or stumbling over regarding the outpouring and himself, and in which he appeals for unity in the Body of Christ. We have found this letter to be solidly Biblical, balanced, well-written, and quite helpful. It can be found at this link: http://www.freshfire.ca/?Id=1059&pid=993.
Biblical Scholar provides theological support: Dr. Gary S. Greig, PhD., former Associate Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Regent University School of Divinity, and Senior Editor, Theology and Acquisitions for the Regal Publishing Group, has written a theological response to questions and criticisms of the Lakeland outpouring. Dr. Greig recently wrote “Biblical Reasons to Receive God’s Glory and Give it Away in Power Evangelism,” so that as many as possible would receive “biblical permission” to get on board and fully commit to receiving the Lord’s glory and anointing, and to give it away in power evangelism. You can find his paper at this link: http://www.freshfire.ca/UserFiles/File/drGreg_biblicalperspective2008.pdf.
Rudy, thank you. Note that I have also drawn attentions these articles in my two posts today, here and here.
I come from an AOG background and based on the things I read about Todd Bentley, I find it to be extremely disturbing:-
1. He has tattoos and piercings all over his body
2. Angel Emma???
3. The manifestations of the Holy Spirit u mentioned,ie. whereby a pastor’s wife started barking like a dog and squawking like a chicken. This is definitely not the workings of the Holy Spirit but more like a Counterfeit Spirit at work.
4. The way he prays for people, ie. via violence. Our God is not a God of violence and pummeling someone in the face is certainly not an act of God.
I am from Holland and also hearing many things from Lakewood. I am investigating different arguments whether this is real from God or not. I believe that people can hit someone when the Holy Spirit tells him so that the person can be healed. Many people like the commenter before me ‘charismatic’ look only in the physical. But it is written in the Word that men is not only body but mind, body and soul. So the Holy Ghost can ask a christian to hit someone for healing, he is not hitting the person OR the body but he hits the demon that makes the person sick.
I think many of the concerns are dealed with in the comments above. The only thing I can not understand is why Todd places tattoos and piercings after he has been saved while it is known the God of Israel doesn’t want men tattooted and pierced?
Charismatic, if you have questions about the angel Emma, please read the post.
Charismatic and Mike, the rules about tattoos and piercings are part of the Old Covenant and were included at that time because these were parts of pagan religion. I am not entirely happy with tattoos and piercings but recognise that that is more to do with my respectable culture than with true Christian faith.
you all get so bogged down in the detail we are loved by Jesus each and every one of us submit your self to him and accept his gift of the Holy Spirit. If God wants to heal you thank him and go on your way rejoicing if you are not healed dont blame God he has had enough stick in this blog alone rejoice and allow him to use you as you are.We are only here for the blink of an eye this aint a practice run make the most of it and bring joy to yourself others and Our Father in Heaven and dot forget JESUS LOVES YOU
When angels like Emma come into view, I begin to think twice….’angel of light’ comes to mind here.
There’s too much violence – you don’t need to choke somebody to cast the devil out of anyone. Just the name of Jesus is sufficient. Too much display of ‘the works of the flesh’!
Too much showmanship for my liking!
Mike: It is not true that I am looking at the physical. I come from a christian background that believes in being slained by the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues and I believe that God can work through signs and wonders. However, it is totally uncharacteristic of the Holy Spirit to heal people via violence, ie. hitting them. What ‘bystander’ commented is right, God doesn’t need us to hit someone just so He can heal them and cast out the spirit of infirmity etc, the name of Jesus is powerful enough.
Peter:I’ve read the post but it has only confirmed my suspicions on this ‘angel’ Emma, ie. is she really from God or from the enemy? And Peter, appreciate if you provide some comment on my earlier’s post about the pastor’s wife. What happened to her – barking like a dog/squawking like a cat sounds like someone who was demonized and not someone who was just ‘whacked by the Holy Ghost’ as you put it. The Holy Spirit does not make people act like animals.period. Let us be reminded that even the devil can ‘heal’ and provide financial blessings in order to deceive people.
As for tattoos being an old covenant, do you have any scripture in the new testament to proof that tattoos are now accepted/condoned by God?
“Charismatic” and “Bystander”, I note that you are posting from the same IP address and so not independently.
Charismatic, you write:
Who are you to tell God what he doesn’t need to do, in a situation we know almost nothing about? Read John 9:6-7, where Jesus chose (whether he “needed” to or not) to use indirect means to heal. And who are you to tell the Holy Spirit what he can or cannot do? Read Daniel 4:31-32 about someone God made to act like an animal. Then repent of your presumption while you still have the chance.
Peter: Yes, we are posting from the same computer but we are different people. Can’t a few people using the same computer have the samer opinion???
And who are YOU to ask me to repent???? I think you people are so blinded by the devil, please REPENT and ask God for forgiveness. And by the way, you don’t seem to know the nature of God and the Holy Spirit very well from the comments you made. The scriptures you posted DO NOT by any means support that the actions done are from God.
and by the way, you have yet to show me the scripture supporting the fact that tattoos are condoned by God.
Thank you and may God have mercy on you.
Let me first of all say that I have attended pentecostal type churches for the past 35 plus years.
I have to say I have not quite made up my mind on whether this so-called revival is of God. My jury is out for it’s deliberation but from what I’ve researched (on the net, talking to those who have attended meetings, and scripture) it sure does not look good for Todd.
I tend to agree with Don more than anyone else. He is seeking the “whole counsel of God” (both old and new testaments). Others here seem to say God has done away with his old testament WORD and I think that is error. Anyway getting back to Todd, I have asked many in favour of this revival why Todd is not using the name of the female angel EMMA anymore. In fact all references to EMMA have been removed from his website. Also I understand the pastor of Ignited Church has asked that EMMA not be used because he is uncomfortable with it. If EMMA is truly an angel sent to Todd from Jesus, then why has he all of a sudden not using the name?. If it was me I would be shouting it from the rooftops!!! Is Todd trying to hide something? Is he ashamed of the angel that Jesus sent him. Isn’t that like saying he’s ashamed of Jesus? No one has been able to answer these questions!! Actions speak louder than words people! So does anyone here have an answer to these questions? That is one of my concerns regarding whether this is a true move of God and why my “jury” is still out deliberating.
My second concern is that of Todd’s associations with the so-called prophets on the Elijah list and others who are big supporters. I will not get into too many details, but suffice to say that Pastor Haggard and Paul Cain, both admitted homosexuals, are connected strongly to the Elijah list prophets. My question is why the self proclaimed prophets did not have discernment of these two individuals? If they were “true” prophets I think they would have had that discernment. I ask the question: is there a deceptive spirit involved here?
I will not comment too much on Todd’s tattoos since many accusations have been made and when I researched them they were totally false. The concern in this area for me is why so many of these tattoos borderline occultic?
One last comment. I am proceeding with much caution here because a few warning flags are still up as far as I am concerned. There is much wisdom in the old expression – better to be safe than sorry!!!
I think all christians are DUMB AND STUPID AND BELIEVE IN STUPID FAIRY TALES. It seems a lot of guys here agree with me.
The people posting here don’t seem as bad so I will not put you in the same grouiping as other christians because I find it encouraging that you use your reasoning a bit more.
I only encourage you to rely on your own human reasoning a bit more to realise that christianity and religion itself is a big scam.
Please research works by Richard Dawkins for more enlightening.
Also visit websites like http://richarddawkins.net/.
YOU GUYS ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK!! DONT BE SUCKERED IN BY THE STUPIDITY OF RELIGION!
Whats wrong with tattoos? Charismatic visit http://www.bikersforchrist.org or http://www.bikersforjesus.com/ are you saying these people because they have tattoos and ride bikes are not Christians, what about ear rings or body piercing make up or jewelery? Where else shall we go with this baseball caps,( I have seen kids on there first visit to a church turned away for wearing a hat in church) hi heels, shorts , overalls ……….. I could go on ,is it tattoos or Todd Bentley’s tattoos? I don’t understand whats going on at Lakeland or Dudley but I want healing my neighborhood wants healing my nation wants healing they don’t know they want it.I was only the other day praying with a young girl mid 20’s who when I asked to the Sunday services replied Are you open on Sundays so to her someone with a few tattoos who offered the hand of friendship and helped her to experience Gods love wouldn’t seen at all strange. I have no idea as to what is or isn’t a revival but what Todd is doing don’t seem too bad to me
Brett I must say that is an interesting point of view.
Ray, you ask “So does anyone here have an answer to these questions?”, but have you read this post which links to Todd’s own answers to these questions? Todd’s article includes his own explanation of Emma and of why he has had certain pages removed from his website. So there is no need to speculate about why Todd may have done this. I also recommend this post to you.
Brett, what would you say if you were presented with clear evidence that someone had been miraculously healed at a Todd Bentley meeting? Would you be prepared to believe evidence? If not, perhaps you have presuppositions which you don’t fully recognise which explain why you get different results from your human reasoning from those that Christians get.
Peter: Thank you for commenting on my post however I am sorry to say, that Todd does not address my question regarding EMMA. My question was why does he not mention EMMA’s name anymore? That question is not answered by Todd. Last week I checked his website and the article regarding EMMA was still there however it was “doctored” from it’s original state, ie, EMMA’s name was removed but the story concerning her was still there!! Now I see he has removed “many” of the pages concerning Angelic Hosts however the “doctored” article concerning EMMA remains. He says that he has removed these pages because too much credit is being given to the devil. This to me is a very lame excuse because these originals can be found on the net for anyone wanting to spend the time to search for them (the truth cannot be hidden in this day and age). But for those that only visit his site these articles are completely gone. This is misleading to me.
Also you did not address my second question regarding associations. I would really appreciate your or anyone else’s thoughts on these two questions.
PS: At present I am reading a book concerning a true story of deceptive angels that ever so slowly deceived long time Jesus loving christians to commit crimes. Small petty crimes at first but then led to the horrible crime of murder. No drugs were involved. There is too much to tell here but the story is an example of how a group of well intentioned christians can be so deceived. The only reason I mention this story is to caution people when dealing with angelic spirits – they are very very deceptive coming disguised as an angel of light. By coincidence this took place in the area of Grants Pass Oregon where Todd was visited by an angel. Coincidence? Maybe.
Ray, it seems clear that Todd wants to deflect attention from the angels issue to the things he is doing at Lakeland. What would you think if I ignored the good work which I presume you are doing now and kept on about something you did years ago which, although you don’t actually want to disown it, was not your proudest moment and something you would rather leave behind you? Don’t you think Todd is quite reasonable to direct attention away from Emma?
As for associations, you claim that Todd is “associated” with Elijah List and that Haggard and Cain also are, or were. Well, this is simply an attempt to smear by association. Does the fall of Haggard and perhaps of Cain necessarily imply that everyone associated with this ministry is equally guilty? Haggard and Cain bear the guilt for their own sin, and the list leaders may bear some responsibility for lack of discernment in associating with them. But why blame Todd for being expected to keep such a great distance from Haggard when most American evangelicals were enthusiastically supporting an organisation of which he was head? In fact their association with Haggard is closer than Todd’s. So let’s stop trying to attribute guilt by association.
This page is getting some extra hits today from readers of two new posts, one said to have been written by Mark Cahill and another said to have been written by Brian Cranford. But oddly enough the two posts seem to be more or less word for word identical. Now if I apply the same kind of discernment to them that they do to Todd Bentley, I have to conclude that at least one of these two is involved in misrepresentation and plagiarism. So I can only caution my readers not to take seriously what they say.
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Peter, it’s not my wish to enter into an argument with you. Yes, charismatic and I know each other, but that does not mean we can not have our own opinions on this matter. I have been a Christian for the past 36 years &believe me, I have seen people getting deceived by counterfeit spirits – there was even one church in one of our towns that was deceived by the counterfeit, yes, an AOG church for that matter! their experience was quite similar to this ‘Todd Bentley’ revival showmanship – there were visitations of angels in the church, with supposedly gifts of the Spirit in operation, punching or pummelling followed by miraculous healings. Supposedly prophetic gifts were released, etc.In the end it was exposed as ‘not from the Lord’! Eventually, the whole church almost closed down because of it.
Some people have likened Bentley’s ministry to Smith Wigglesworth’s. I question that comparison. Yes, there were occassions when Wigglesworth did punch certain people to get sicknesses out of them, and miraculously, they WERE healed! We are talking about terminal diseases here, not the common cold.
However, please take note that Wigglesworth did NOT punch NOR kick anybody in the face, choke them half to death to get the devil out, and NEITHER did he ‘leg-drop’ anyone!
And yes,too, I don’t like the looks of those tattoos on Bentley’s body. One of those designs, of the tattoos, look like a half-man, half-woman demon! Could it be EMMA?!! Tattoos are spiritual art, definitely occultic…..they become entry points for demons into the person’s soul & body, so no wonder this guy is so VIOLENT!
I have been in the deliverance ministry for the past 10 years, so I speak this from experience.
Peter: Further to your quote on Daniel 4:31-32 to support the case of the Pastor’s wife behaving like an animal, if you are suggesting that the pastor’s wife was punished by God just as God had punished Nebuchadnezzar and turned him into a ‘wild animal’, then by all means, I agree with you.
Don Hoppity: You are but using human reasoning to justify your acceptance of tattoos; no scripture to back it up whatsoever. And when I was saying that God has asked us not to tattoo our body, this does not mean we turn away those who have tattoos – love the sinner,hate the sin. For those people who have had tattoos before they knew the Lord, I would say it’s not so bad since they did not know that it was wrong to do so then. But for those christians who actually go get their bodies tattooed (especially with occultic looking signs) after they become christians, why do so when the bible clearly forbids us to do so?? Aren’t you clearly disobeying God?
Peter – I think you are a really wise and discerning person, to handle all these critics in the patient manner you are doing. Thank you for standing firm and for being strong and courageous. I have been a follower of the Living Christ for over 30 years and will say that I do not clasify myself by saying I am charismatic, penticostal, reform or any other man made phylisophical grouping of those who, for some short period in the time of history, are “like-minded”.
What matters most to me is the signifcant Presence of the Living God – His Will being done and His Kingdom coming into each situation. The evil enemy, deceiver (even of the brethren) comes in the form of strict religious dogma (the letter kills) and will show up best in those who are unwilling to yield to the Spirit of God but who have made for themselves a set of rules to follow.
Jesus has always – and will always – been/be the Healer – of body, soul and spirit. From all the meetings I have witnessed in Lakeland, Todd Bentley (and others there)has always given Him the glory and I have not seen one barking, clucking person around – only those sincerely worshipping the Lord – tears and all – and giving Him the glory for HIS touch on/in there lives.
As for Todd’s tattoo’s. Let us not judge, but rather, in an atitude of love recall where this young man comes from and how God will deal with issues that need to be dealt with – in all of our lives – we all stand and we all fall before the Lord.
Todd is not a deceiver, He is a willing instrument/ vessel for the Lord to work through. If the critics want to be gentle with afflicting spirits – that is their choice, however, if the Holy Spirit wants to knock evil out in an unusual way – God is God.
Press on Todd, press on, Peter – the enemy is NOT going to have victory. The true Church of the Living, Resurrected Christ is with you. (Please excuse any spelling errors you may find).
Cristine, thanks for the encouragement.
Bystander and Charismatic, I’m sorry if I distrusted you. But I was aware of a situation on another thread where someone said something controversial and was immediately supported apparently by several other commenters – who were then revealed by the blog owner as aliases of the original commenter.
Daniel 4:31-32 is quite different from the case Todd refers to, but does falsify “The Holy Spirit does not make people act like animals.period.”
Bystander, you mention an AOG church in your town where angels visited, gifts of the Spirit operated, and people were healed. Praise the Lord! The enemy neither could nor would do that. Then it all went wrong. Sadly the enemy can lead people astray. He may even lead Todd astray if he is not very careful to keep close to God and allows all this to go to his head. Does this prove that the whole thing is from the enemy? By no means! And don’t forget Philippians 1:15-18.
Fellow christians, I have concluded that there will be groups of christians that will believe/support Bentley’s ministry and there will be those of us who question if it is really from God. However, let us be reminded once again of the following as we are truly living in the end times:-
Jeremiah 14:14 Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
Mathew 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mathew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.
2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness
Peter: Just read your latest comment after I posted the above. Thanks for your humility and I do realize that although we may all differ in opinions etc, we are all still part of the body of Christ, so I would also like to say sorry if I offended you. Anyhow, the reason why some of us are concerned about Bentley’s ministry is because we don’t want our fellow christians to fall prey to the enemy’s trap; so I hope sincerely that Bentley isn’t a false prophet.
I have been reading all these interesting discussions on Todd Bentley.
In reply to one comment that ‘God can heal people in any way he sees fit’..
that is true BUT the Sign of Healing does not neccessarily say that the TRUE GOD is at work.
Buddhist Priests, Spiritual Healers and even Pharoah’s magicians can perform miracles. There have been many people ‘healed’ of terminal diseases who are not Christians and went to different healers.
So, Christians, please beware that the ability to perform Miracles does not mean that he is from God.
My last comment – does anyone really think that satan would give glory to Christ for ANY healing (of body, soul or spirit). Think again.
Let those who have ears hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
We live in a battle, which encompasses everything that happens on earth. Nothing happens in isolation, either by God’s plan, human decision or demonic influence. Only one of these is of any good, the others are never to be trusted, hence the desperate need for discernment.
I’ve heard enough opinion about everything from the nature of salvation to tattoos and what music we listen to. There is so much ‘external’ truth around these days it can be harder to be discerning. I don’t know about much, but I am more and more convicted that I need to get closer to God if I stand a chance of running this race with perseverance. I recognise my own self-righteous attitudes and need to keep close to God, close enough to taste the cross. I’ve criticised my fair share of people in the past, and fallen far short of what God wants of me.
Yet my hope is in God who is Greater than any human idea, weakness or plan, as well as any scheme of the enemy. Let’s keep on finding ways to build each other up in the faith, knowing the true Nature of things and the Holiness of God who is mighty to save.
Peter, you have a good heart. And I believe you are a good Christian. I hope you will be very careful, that’s all!
Remember, even the ‘very elect’ can be deceived by the enemy if one is not discerning enough.
Our Lord tells us how to identify false prophets…by their fruits ye shall know them. Is Todd Bentley’s private life bearing the fruit of the Spirit, or the works of the flesh? Be brave enough to find out all about the ‘real Todd Bentley’ & not be taken up by his showmanship.
All that boastfulness reflect the pride in his heart. Those tattoos are the works of the flesh – he has, unfortunately, opened the door for the enemy to use him, to deceive other Christians. And not forgetting, too, that violent streak!It’s a tell-tale sign of demonisation.
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Peter, further to yr comments about the Holy Spirit causing the Pastor’s wife to behave like an animal which translates to being blessed by the Holy Spirit,pls read the following writeup:
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2007/08/21/signs-wonders-bizarre-spiritual-manifestations/
God bless
Thank you, Charismatic. Derek Prince makes a good point here. I accept that there is some doubt about the validity of people making animal noises. I do not accept that Todd Bentley’s mention of this, in an article some years old, invalidates his current ministry. I am not aware of animal noise manifestations on any regular basis at Lakeland.
I am a long-time Pentecostal believer with a seminary training in the Reformed tradition; to many this is probably an oxymoron. But I only mention my Pentecostal background to say that I am not inclined to quickly dismiss the miraculous. I do, however, take to task the claims of Todd Bentley that he is training and equipping as an evangelist the saints for the work of the ministry. He ought to take some lessons from Way of the Master.com.
And what is the gospel? I have listened to him on God TV and have read his letter and the core issue of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness to the believer is not heard. So how long must I listen?
As a California Prophetic Movement Pentecostal, what I have witnessed from Todd Bentley is just more of the same old stuff. What manner of Christian can endure these types? Prehaps those who indeed have lost sight of their own sinful state before a Holy God. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Perhaps the Spirit Jesus spoke of has forgotten His role, or perhaps the Spirit Todd speaks of is not the same Spirit?
Or perhaps, Jody, the “Reformed” tradition of presenting the gospel explicitly in terms of imputed righteousness is not the only valid one? However, he does clearly preach about sin and the need to repent and accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord. Is that not enough? Or does he have to preach word for word from some “Reformed” textbook sermon?
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On June 27, 2008 at 8pm EST Live, we will be interviewing Doug Perry of The Fellowship of the Martyrs – http://www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com in regards to him speaking out about Todd Bentley of Fresh Fire Ministries. Some of the questions we will be asking is Who is Todd Bentley and why is Doug and others speaking out about him? If you’re a Christian you don’t want to miss this eye opening show, so feel free to call in with your questions and comments about Todd Bentley.
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Hosted by: Joseph V. Bednarsky Jr.
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Bystander, Smith Wigglesworth drop kicked a dead baby off the platform and it came back to life.
The bible never says the elect will be deceived. It says that if possible to deceive the elect.
I don’t have a problem with tattoos. Jesus has one. Look in Revelation. His name is written on his thigh. The Old Testament says if a servant doesn’t want to leave his master, pierce his ear with an awl and he becomes a slave for life.
The tattoo referred to on Todd’s leg is an image from the Christian death metal group Mortification. They are one of Todd’s favorite bands (that’s from his My Space profile).
Rahab: I grieve to read how you can actually misintepret Scripture and blaspheme the Lord by saying He has a tattoo on His thigh??? Pls repent before it is too late.
Rahab, thanks for correcting me. Thankfully, it was a dead baby….However, Todd is kicking ‘living people’ in the face (& at least one had his teeth kicked out, too) – I sure I wouldn’t like to be the person who is kicked in the face, would you? You are welcome to volunteer for this if you want, just to prove me wrong! As for dead babies? Well, it didn’t seem so bad since he was already dead….but wonder of wonders, he came back to life, glory to God!
Jesus did NOT have a tattoo on his thigh, you blasphemer! I believe His Name was ‘written’ on his thigh, not tattooed in. There’s a vast difference between written & tattoed, you know.
And, out of the horse’s mouth, one of Bentley’s tattoos was from….. the devil…. who else?….
“The tattoo referred to on Todd’s leg is an image from the Christian death metal group Mortification. They are one of Todd’s favorite bands (that’s from his My Space profile).” ….
Christians should not be involved with death metal, ‘cos it’s the devil’s music.
Todd Bentley is against Biblical Teachings
1. The Bible says
Leviticus 19:28
“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the LORD.
Todd’s body is full of tattoos it shows he don’t obey Bible. (Read the Bible don’t believe people) God can’t work through a man who won’t obey His word.
2. He is making people to laugh where the Bible says you must fill in sprit and laugh? Can you show me one reference in Bible? It is not thought by Jesus, or by apostils.
3. Falling in sprit is it a Biblical teaching? No. No where in Bible you can show people are falling in sprit.
4. Where is the Fire anointing in Bible? And where is fresh fire? Why we are not following the Bible and follow the unbiblical preachers???
Think and write your feed back
Rahab, thanks for your comment.
Rabi, do you abstain from pork? Do you rest on Saturdays? Do you observe the Day of Atonement and sabbatical years? Do you present sacrifices as instructed in Leviticus? Only if you observe every detail of the Law of Moses do you have the right to criticise others for not obeying the Law of Moses. Compare Mark 7:9, Jesus’ criticism of those who pick and choose which laws to obey. If you hold that certain of those laws do not apply to Christians today, then why don’t you let Todd do the same? There may be some debate about whether tattoos are in the same class as the laws I mentioned, but this does prove that it is not nearly as simple as “Todd’s body is full of tattoos it shows he don’t obey Bible.”
For laughing, see Psalm 126:2 and Luke 6:21. For falling in the Spirit, see Matthew 28:4 and Revelation 1:17. For fire anointing, see Matthew 3:11 and Acts 2:3. There is nothing unbiblical here.
Mark Zimmermann has made a comment on another post which would make more sense, at least to me, as a comment here.
I find it totally contradicting on how some christians can use human reasoning to ‘do away’ with whichever of God’s word that speaks against Todd Bentley (ie.tattoos) but yet can then totally misintepret the Scripture and blaspheme God by saying He had a tattoo on His thigh. And the fact that Todd Bentley listens to death metal music is evidence enough of his unscriptural teachings and ministry. Why do u want to listen to this Bentley person who is totally opposite what Jesus is?? I’m sure the enemy is laughing at how he managed to use a supposed ‘man of God’ to deceive God’s people.
Here’s something which is good ‘food for thought’…
The below comment is written by someone who apparently knew someone who was a satanist:-
I once met a hermaprodite satanist of very high power with Angelic language tatoos up and down their arm. They were incantations to draw fallen angels to it so that she/him could impart their powers to others. I’ve noticed that Todd Bentley has these tatoos of flames coming up to his neck, with Chinese characters on his neck and throat. He seems to be some sort of a conduit for spirits and this seems to be his theme. I believe that he is attracting fallen angels, who are much greater in power than mere demons; to impart them to those he touches.
Some time ago I watched as he preformed a blatent witchcraft ceremony where the people write their “prayer requests” on paper, and then light them up with fire. This comes right from a pagan ceremony.
The phrase, “I am Christ” given in Matt. 24:5; literally means “I am of the anointing of God.” That is what the Lord Jesus was warning us of. It’s going to be such a strong delusion, to deceive even the very elect.(if you don’t try the spirits) The human mind is easily manipulated especially by fallen Angels. Our Charge is to be sober, be vigilant, because our adversary , the Devil, as a roaring lion seeketh whom to devour.”
They are demons, false religious spirits that have infiltrated these revivals. It is the same spirit that causes the shaking and strange behavior in the vineyard movement, or the Toronto blessing. The demon is imparted to a person as a blessing or a spiritual gift. It is very powerful and mimics the Holy Spirit in that it creates a spiritual high and a strange feeling of peace in the stomach area. It can cause visions and produce vivid dreams. It can give someone the faith to have the power of healing.
This spirit is aggressive, where the Holy Spirit is not, and will continue to guide the person using supernatural experiences, sometimes having an angel guide or spirit guide.
Typically the doctrine of the church becomes corrupt, the more of these demons that are imparted to the congregation, the more powerful the church becomes, to the point of even affecting people outside of the building.
The powers ruling this deception are running their course, becoming more organized, and deceptive by stopping the barking, shaking and bizarre laughter of the participants.
Your wrong about witches and satanist not being able to “mirror and mimic” the activity and worship of the Lord. Since they now have “Jesus Demons” and “Guiding spirit Angels” they can sing to their lord, Satan, and do it in a convincing way. It will take spiritual discernment to uncover what is really going on underneath this facade. These people wrote the book about “mirror and mimic”.
And another question must be asked…is Jesus really the one receiving the glory or is the miracle and sign receiving the glory? Usually there is no raising of praise, until a “miracle” has been manifested. All the focus is on the supernatural power. This is all being “whipped up” by a frenzy of mass manipulation and hypnosis. That is not the work of my God.
it’s a whole different ball of wax if I am actively in front of thousands of people leading them into a witchcraft incantation disguised as a “Christian prayer offering”.
I’m talking about misleading the people of God into an active realm of witchcraft that will undoubtedly lead the Church into judgment. The Holy Spirit is not poured out in an atmosphere that is overrun by infiltrators, the spirit is grieved, You cannot mix the cup of the Lord with the cup of devils.
He “sounds” just like a Christian. Satanist are trained to “be better Christians than the Christians.” Their Queen told me that they will never allow a Satanist to enter a congregation that could not at least quote the Bible better than the pastor. What does that tell you about their dedication to their craft? Nothing is as it appears; that is why I urge Spiritual discernment. Spiritual discernment is not contending on things that appear before us, it is contending on the Holy Spirit’s leading. And many here have given testimony of the same spirit leading them to be weary of Todd Bentley.
I am amazed at how much confusion is caused by Christians unable to discern that which is totally biblical, and that which contains a little leaven and leavens the whole. Firstly, there is no mention in the entire bible of any female angel. Be very careful not to “go beyond that which is written” An interesting point here is that EMMA-O is the name of a Japanesse god of mythology effectionately known as the “king of hell” who lives the “good” life in a castle covered in gold. Ever heard of “An angel of light” Secondly; why would Todd Bentley cover himself with tatoos and have his body pierced knowing this is contrary to the word of God. Body piercing is not a biblical principle, but a wordly one. The Bible teaches that “anyone who is a friend of the world is an enemy of God” The same Bible also teaches that “if anyone loves the world or the things of the world, the love of the Father is not in him”. Body piercing IS of this wicked world. Thirdly; as many have already expressed, why wont Todd rush to the nearest hospital and do some healing there? Come on now, when Moses threw his rod to the ground, it turned into a snake. When Pharaoh saw this he must of thought “big deal” any fool can do that WATCH ME DO THE SAME….and so he did. Satan is the best counterfeiter in the universe. Wake up church. Some of “you are deceived not knowing the scriptures”….. God said so. Didn’t Jesus warn that in the last days many would come in His name and deceive, even from amongst your own says He; even from amongst the very Christians. Don’t fall for all these heresies. Listen ONLY to God through His Son Jesus as instructed in Hebrews 1.
Peter Kirk made reference to Matt 28:4 and Rev 1:17 for falling in the Spirit. Might one suggest that he reads those scriptures in context?
MATTHEW 28, 2) And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. 3) His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: 4) And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead [men].
REVELATION 1, 17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last.
Where do you find in either of these scriptures people falling backwards due to someone under the anointing touching them? You don’t. Can you find it anywhere in the Bible? No. Genuine anointing under the influence of a wrong spirit.
What is the purpose of it? As has been pointed out by many, what man of God would have his ears and lip pierced and body tattooed? Something which is totally contrary to his statement of Faith: “We believe all Christians are called into a life of separation from sinful practices and they should take every opportunity to promote righteousness and godliness (James 4:4; Romans 12:1-2, 13:1-10; 2Cor 6:14 -18; 1 John 2:15 -17). Holiness is the release of Christ within each and every believer, changing us into His image, from glory to glory. (2Cor 3:18 )”
Without doubt there is a genuine anointing and people are getting healed by God but one has to go beyond the works and look to what is being taught.
I’m finding this topic on Todd Bentley an excellant bible study with all the contributors giving out the word of God. Mr Bentley is the talk-of-the-town all over the place, but the moment something is said about his doctrine which is unbiblical, you can bet your life the reply will be “But we mustn’t judge” Little do these people know that the God given gift of discernment is the authority to judge. Oops, that didn’t go down well. Apostle Paul rebuked the church for their failure to judge; 1 Corinthians 6:5. Paul said “Shame on you” because there was no-one there able to judge. Oops, that didn’t go down too well either. Jesus said “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment” So maybe we can forget about all the tattoos, the ear, chin and eyebrow piercing, and concentrate on sound doctrine being preached by example, by judging Todd Bentley from scripture. Oops, another sore point, not a good example eh? “And be not CONformed to this world; but; but; Ah but; be ye TRANSFORMED by the renewing of your mind” (Romans 12:2) Listen folks, the intrinsic credibility of the Bible is irrevocable. When God says “Do not go beyond what is written” He actually means “Do not go beyond what is written” By the way, I have this in writing in 1 Corinthians 4:2. I know, I’m a spoil-sport but, we can’t alter the fact that it is written. Here’s something else that will come as a shock. The only people that fell backward were the ENEMIES of Jesus. John 18: 6. Be very, very careful about this “slain in the spirit” con-trick. The Lord does NOT slay His church. Don’t fall for the lie. Study the word of God carefully and test every spirit.
Charismatic, may I suggest you change your handle to “Legalist”.
Bystander, I prefer to trust the discernment of the church leaders who are close to me and have experienced Todd’s ministry first hand, rather than that of your unnamed “someone” who does not seem to have any first hand information about Todd. Certainly “Usually there is no raising of praise, until a “miracle” has been manifested” is not at all true of his ministry.
John, your Bible obviously does not contain the book of Zechariah.
David, you are right that the context of Matthew 28:4 and Revelation 1:17 is not precisely that of a Todd Bentley meeting. But if you read Rabi’s comment to which I was replying it was not about Todd’s meetings but was putting forward general principles which are demonstrably false.
Have any of you heard of this quotation: “in essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity”? Todd does not differ from all evangelical Christians in the essentials of the faith. The matters on which he differs from some, such as his teaching on angels, are by no means essentials. And if people are not prepared to concede to him liberty on such matters, surely they should at least offer him charity i.e. love.
I don’t know much about Lakeland/Todd et al, but I do know that it is affecting the whole world. I hear everything from all sides of argument/position whatever, and I am increasingly alarmed, especially since my pastor is over there right now.
God can use fallen people – we call it grace. We have to respond to it, but who can tell the limit of God’s grace. Sure, we can’t provoke God by doing dumb stuff and expecting to get away with it – God disciplines the ones he loves.
I hear talk of ‘angels’ and all the rest and people being critical of the recent-years events of Toronto, Pensacola, Brownsville and such. We look for fruit, knowing full well that the enemy looks to snatch fruit as quick as it comes to be (think about Herod trying to kill the baby Jesus).
We have to be VERY CAREFUL in all this, for our passions too often get the better of us. Do we speak out of our need to voice our opinion, our belief that we are right, or some other reason.
Let’s be on guard against ANYTHING, especially trivial argument, whose only ‘fruit’ is division, disunity and the widening of gaps of fellowship that exist between believers across the world. Now is not the time for civil war in the church, only the continual repentance and acknowledgement that only God is God.
We already have all the revelation we need in God’s Word concerning our lives and God’s mission on earth.
If we are to truly “work out [our] salvation with fear and trembling”, our right to ourself must be put aside and handed to God.
I’ve seen every manner of church under the sun (well… almost…) and the only faults I’ve ever seen are human ones, but we hold onto them so passionately and vehemently.
Let’s not get burnt by the fires we aren’t supposed to play with.
Thanks, Jamie. Should we really be dividing the church over some questionable teaching about angels, given several years ago? Of course not! If we accept Baptists and paedo-baptists, premillennilists, postmillennialists and amillennialists etc as Christian brothers and sisters, then why can’t we accept someone who may have a few questionable ideas about some peripheral issues. The heart of Todd’s gospel is quite clearly sound.
This is a comment on some early posts I know but I couldn’t resist.
If deliberate contact with the dead is probhibited in the bible then I guess Jesus was in BIG trouble for what he did on the mount of transfiguration when the Father and the Holy Spirit found out.
Mediumism is forbidden – but you can’t extend that to a blanket “no contact with the dead” when Jesus clearly did have contact!
Peter, if the reason u are suggesting that I change my nick from charismatic to legalist is because I have decided that Bentley’s teachings, ministry and lifestyle is not from God, then so be it. I’ll rather be called a legalist and not be deceived by the enemy than be a die-hard Todd Bentley believer and get fooled by the devil.
Charismatic, the reason I am suggesting a change of name is because you seem to decide things based on a set of rules, allegedly from the Bible but in fact not solidly based on it, rather than on the true biblical principles embraced by genuine charismatics of following the leading of the Holy Spirit. Mark 7:5-13.
An answer to questions about the angel Emma:
Zechariah 5:9 Then I looked up and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork…..
Peter: I STILL believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit which includes speaking in tongues, being slained by the Holy Spirit, miracles and prophecies etc. The ONLY thing I don’t believe in is the man Todd Bentley himself. Which part of him and his ministry personifies ‘true biblical principles’?
Robin: You are misintepreting scripture. The 2 women mentioned by Zechariah are NOT female angels. If they were, Zechariach would have mentioned specifically that they were angels as in v.8, he talked about an angel who was talking to him. Some people even intepret these 2 women as being agents of evil as the basket they were carrying symbolizes wickedness.
In conclusion, there is nothing in the Bible mentioning the fact that there are female angels and ‘angel Emma’ is nothing more than the angel of light.
Leave the poor guy alone, why are we doing God’s job for him? He is the only one that can pass on judgement and he has appointed a day for that. If Todd is doing something wrong, let God be the judge of that, as long as we focus on the Almighty God, the one and only, then no harm shall come on us. If you need healing, God is able, so just pray in faith and with a clean and loving heart and God will heal you. Do not focus on the person or the servant but focus on our Lord Jesus Christ because he is the way, the truth and the light. Isaiah 53, tells us that, he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. Through Jesus is the only way we can be healed so as long as the people seeking healing are focusing on God for the healing not Todd or any other person then you are fine. This is advice for people that are seeking healing from God and for those of you mini gods that are doing the judging the Lord Almighty back off and worry about your relationship with God and your salvation, focus on God and him alone and trust him do his job when the time comes. This is my question for you mini gods; how sure are you that he is a false prophet? Is it because of his tatoos, the rings, the way he look, what? I know you are not 100% sure that he is a false prophet so lay off, cos is only God that knows the and if he is GOD will be the judge of that. Think about how you are judging him, and only to find out on judgement day that he was real, then what? you’ve condemned a man of God for no good reason. We as true christians are suppose to love God and him only and do his will and also love our neighbours as ourselve and if we have enemies or whatever, we are suppose to still love them and let God wrath be what comes upon them in God own time. Stay out people, and if don’t want to watch his program dont watch it and focus on your salvation and God alone. God bless you all and keep you in peace! Amen
Thank you, Sylvia. Well said!
As expected, Todd’s followers will risk their lives to defend him and will refuse to heed the warnings and advices of other fellow christians. I guess we’ve done our part in putting forth the warning signals but if people do not want to listen and instead call those of us who have our doubts on Todd as ‘mini gods’, there’s nothing more we can do. We have done our part and we will ‘lay off’ the Todd-fans as Sylvia puts it. God bless.
1 Corinthians.
My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.
*******************
I’m no ‘Todd-fan’, but I’ll stop short of risking CALLING SOMETHING OF GOD THE WORK OF THE DEVIL. I’M NOT READY TO RISK THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN, THANKYOU.
Right.
Let’s seek God. Work out salvation with fear and trembling, because which of us is truly wise, or deserving of any rights before God?
No-one.
Let grace, peace and a deeper and more fervent desire for God continue to sweep the Church.
May i stir the pot?
Don’t be pacifistic, un-conditional (word not in the Bible) love, let God take care of it, Christians.
Read the whole Bible and compare all scriptures, or you will easily go off track.
There is a real relationship with God and a real life.
You read about Him in His Word.
Not by going to a money grabbing, signs that make you wonder, Paul Cain lying on stage, Lakeland show.
This show is condemned even by the Pentecostal Assemblies of God in their online revival statement.
There is such overwhelming evidence against Todd Bentley and his “associates”, it is not worth discussing further. Check out the blogs for yourself. Also Ray Comfort. Even Billy Graham Ministries has scripture against Todd Bentley.
This is the saddest tragedy since PTL and Jimmy S.
So please don’t politely polish it off, or say talk nice. Todd Bentley is a convicted pedophile from Canada. Fact. Todd Bentley is a proven many time liar.
Fact. Todd Bentley is currently under investigation by Canadian and US authorities. Fact.
Do not be deceived. Get the facts.
Randy, if you don’t forgive people for sins they committed before they were Christians, don’t expect God to forgive your sins.
Please provide links to the Assemblies of God and Billy Graham Ministries statements so that I can see what they really say and why.
What were each of us before we were saved? Perhaps not guilty of anything particularly heinous (but what, exactly, is rebellion against God?), but what exactly did Jesus accomplish through calvary?
We can never excuse or ignore our past and need to be very careful as to who is let into positions of authority over the Church, but we must see things through the viewpoint of the cross. God forgives but expects fruit borne of repentance.
I for one am fed up with all the backbiting, arguing, using-scripture-to-back-up-my-own-point-of-view, ungracious madness that seems to grip the church so easily and frequently (Lakeland, GAFCON, Archbiship Williams etc. etc.). Next time I’ll just post the whole Bible.
Am I ‘in favour’ of Lakeland? Well, I’ve not been so I can’t say. All I do know is what we’re told generally anyway – test any ‘new revelation’ or ‘word/work of God’ against what he has already revealed (ie. in the Word). God cannot contradict Himself (even though people say the Bible contradicts itself), so we can know, with the Spirit’s help, what is best.
There’s things I am rather wary of regarding Lakeland, but, like I said before, I’m sure not going to appoint myself judge of ‘what is best’ for anyone except myself under God.
What is for certain is that we’ve now heard every voice regarding all this. Is there anything else that can now be said?
http://ag.org/top/General_Superintendent/Statement_on_Revival.cfm
Assemblies of God responds (above) to numerous complaints about Todd Bentley, and stands against Todd Bentley/Lakeland show.
(not mentioned by name to avoid liability)
Billy Graham Ministries quotes many scriptures and says: “The Bible’s remarkable unity and coherence confirm its authenticity. It reveals a single Author – the Holy Spirit”
Todd Bentley declared on his website that God did not author the book of Hebrews.
Todd Bentley is now condemned by major Ministries.
Todd Bentley must repent, or fall.
Don’t fall with him.
Don’t loose faith.
ps. “what evil has been done in Lakeland?”
Lots
1. All the money conned out of the poor, needy, and elderly.
2. Hopes, hearts and faith in anguish because Mr. Bentley’s “Word of Knowledge”
failed again and again.
3. Evil spirits oppressing people attending Lakeland are commonly reported.
4. Mr. Bentley turning people from the Word of God, to his “mystic” beliefs.
This and much worse evil has come from Mr. Bentley, his associates, and the Lakeland show.
Mr. Bentley makes a mockery of solid, well studied, Bible believing, Christians.
He is causing more damage than the scandals of the past. He is causing more people to turn away from Jesus, than he claims he saved.
When major Ministries stand against Todd Bentley and his show, you know there is much evil going on.
I pray he confesses, repents and steps down permanently – before others force him to do so, in disgrace.
We do not need another Christian scandal!
Forgiveness is a command in the Bible.
“If you repent”, “If you walk in my ways”,
If…..
It is conditional.
Unless their is repentance and a turning away from the sins God tells us in the Bible, there is no forgiveness. Period.
Unfortunately, too many unread and unwise Christians
fail to use their head. They “love covers all” and
un-conditional love (word or doctrine not in Bible)
peoples sins. Then, when that wicked evil person rapes their son or daughter….
Yea….
(I have seen this tragedy too many times.)
(Did you read about Bentley’s protoge Mr. Cook?
Mr. Cook molested a Pastor’s 2 daughters.)
This is wicked, tragic, evil, yet preventable if
Christians would get their heads out of the sand and
back in the Bible and rational thought.
So do you really know what forgiveness is about?
According to God’s Word?
It is an over 1,000 hour study.
Do this, then you will have an informed, educated opinion on forgiveness. Please.
ps I am not upset or angry. There are too many Christians who are surface and superficial and don’t even read their Bible daily. Yet they think they have a “relationship” with God.
lol
If you were married and put that little amount of time and effort into the relationship…..
Ya….
Do you think your spouse would stick around?
Well, why would God?
Think about it.
Read and study the Word. That is relationship.
Obey His Word. (“IF you love me, obey…”)
Spend time in prayer with God.
Rather than go after WWE Bentley.
A wise person said “Forgiveness (if repented) is given, but trust is earned.”.
Those of you calling yourselves “sceptics”, it is not for you to discern wether the revival going on in florida is of God or not.
yes the word of God says in the last days even the elect will be decieved. But it also says that we may not be able to tell the real from the counterfeit without Gods divine knowledge. Basically saying that sometimes we wont know unless God tell us himself.
Have you ever considered that “the elect being deceived” are those calling themselves God’s people and then doubting him when he pours out his spirit??
Not everything has to be scientifically proved. FAITH. you can’t please God without it but it seems many of Gods people are lacking the fundementals he asks for
Wake up Guys, we’re living in the last days. Read God’s word, pray and ask for divine knowledge. You dont need to sit around looking for statistics to prove everything that is claimed to be a move of God. PRAY….ask God….For those who ask with all sincerity will be answered
Randy, if the Billy Graham Ministries statement condemns Todd Bentley, it also condemns those who say that Paul wrote the letters of Paul, John wrote the gospel and letters of John, etc etc. If that statement is intended to deny the human authorship of Scripture, which I doubt although its wording is unfortunate, I reject it as heretical. I stand with Todd in affirming that the Scriptures were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. In the case of an anonymous book like Hebrews, Todd is free to speculate on its human authorship as many others have.
As for the undated (but clearly recent) Assemblies of God statement, it by no means condemns Todd, unless it is demonstrable that Todd has broken any of the guidelines in this statement. I don’t think he has. If you can prove that he has, then that would be a different matter. Perhaps no one is being baptised in water as a result, but that is because this is not now a “revival” in a church which is what the statement is explicitly about. But we have a ministry where Jesus Christ is exalted, the Word of God is proclaimed, and people are repenting of sin and being “baptised in the Holy Spirit”. As far as this author is concerned, these are the fundamental marks of a valid ministry. Of course he is correct in this:
Emily, thanks for your helpful comment.
To Kaptin Kirk
It sounds like you’re ready to beam out.
lol
I am having difficulty making sense of your words.
They make no sense.
Did you not read Bentley’s statement about how God did not inspire the book of Hebrews?
Obviously you did not.
You sound like the Devil himself! Seriously!
You reject Billy Graham Ministries as “heretical”???
wow
Guess you’re a real winner for that.
The icing on the Kaptin Kirk Kake is you reject the AOG statement condemning all false teachers, which includes Todd Bentley and Lakeland.
Let’s see, that’s over 1/4 million churches you now “reject” too. Gee….
Same spirit as Todd Bentley.
(I am right and everyone else is wrong.)
(echo – I am not a crook.)
wow
You are alone Peter Kirk or whoever The Bentley groupie you are. Get a life, Get Jesus.
You will NOT deceive Christians who love the Word of God and learn to do the Word of God. Because it is entirely inspired by God. 2 Tim 3:16
ps 15 ordained Pastors I personally know have studied the Bentley lies, listened to the AOG statement, and stand against Bentley. Wake up everyone!!!
Don’t let a criminally convicted pedophile lay his hands on you too!!!!
Peter Kirk wrote:
“I stand with Todd in affirming that the Scriptures were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
Your buddy Todd Bentley does NOT say that.
Your quote is a lie.
Why would you lie to people?
Shame on you.
Randy, I affirm the AOG statement rejecting all false teachers, and that includes not Todd Bentley (NOT named in the AOG statement!) but you, who deny the human authorship of Scripture and teach that we should not forgive people for sins they committed before they were born again.
I have indeed “not read Bentley’s statement about how God did not inspire the book of Hebrews” because I have never seen any such statement. Please tell me where I can find it and read it.
Please also give me a link to the Billy Graham Ministries statement allegedly denying the human authorship of Scripture, so that I can read this in context.
As for your last point, see the following which is the very beginning of the Statement of Faith of Todd’s Fresh Fire Ministries:
Put this together with Todd’s known and controversial statement about Paul writing Hebrews with help from Abraham, and it is clear that he believes, like me, that “the Scriptures were written by human authors under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”
I am referring to Todd Bentleys video on u-tube ‘Encounters with Angels’.
In it he states that the same angel that has been assigned to him and launched his healing ministry in 1998 was the same angel used by William Branham in 1946 and Paul Cain in 1950.
He claims that the angel used to appear 30 times in a year and even though the angel does not appear to him now, he is still aware of its presence and people still see the angel themselves when they attend his meetings.
William Branham always relied on an angel to do his miracles, not the Lord and he did not believe in the Trinity. Paul Cain was trained by William Branham and ministered with him. Paul Cain has always used angels to minister and has never repented of his association with Branham.
More recently it has come to light that he is a practising homosexual although he has publicly shown remorse about this.
They were also part of the ‘Latter rain teaching’ which believes that you can become a super saint and completely rule and reign now, completely bringing in God’s kingdom now. Most Christians believe in the ‘now’ and the ‘not yet’ of the kingdom.
Anyway, the bible says that the supernatural gifts are given by the Holy Spirit, to each person as he wills to make up the Body of Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:4-11.
There is no mention of angels healing anyone in the new or the OT or giving gifts of healing to anyone.
Dr Greig who has written a paper defending Todd Bentley’s ministry and Todd Bentley has read and sanctioned this paper making it available on his web site.
In it he gives a defence of Todd Bentley using angels to minister. This must mean that Todd does use angels to minister although on his web site now he only claims to be healing in Jesus name and he has removed quite a few references to angels. I have also seen his U-Tube video where he spends ages calling down angels. Surely he should be calling down the Holy Spirit, not angels.
He does not appear to have repented of any of the above unless anyone has any evidence that I have missed.
Despite having written this, I still want to believe that Todd Bentley’s ministry is of the Lord. Also when you see the scale of the miracles, you wonder how far Satan’s capability can go in doing counterfeit healings. Is he capable of making the blind see etc
I am a charismatic myself and attend a church where we pray for people for healing. In my time I have seen a couple of out and out miracles, not ministered by me though !!.
I’m a bit suspicious myself when people report feeling electricity and that type of supernatural as I always associate that with the other side.
I have experienced the tangible presence of the Lord myself over many months but that came out of seeking him wholeheartedly, prayer and repentance and I just had an incredible sense of love, joy and peace, no electricity !!!
Julie, thanks for your comment. You are wrong that there are no biblical cases of angels ministering healing, as intermediaries for God’s healing power. See Judges 13:3, 1 Kings 19:5-8, Isaiah 6:7, Luke 1:13.
Hi Peter
Thanks for your prompt reply.
Well, my thoughts on that would be as follows:
Firstly that the new testament says we are to minister healing through the Holy Spirit, it doesn’t say anything about angels. I think the New Testament should be the final say where it contradicts the old.
1 Cor 12:4-8
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
…..All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
But anyway I have looked up the scriptures that you have quoted in the Old Testament:
Judg 13:3-4
3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, “You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son.
Judg 13:21-22
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”
In this first one it would appear later that they thought it was God that had appeared to them judging by verse 21-22.. In this case it must have been Jesus.
The ‘Angel of the Lord’ appears to be Jesus in the OT.
If you look at Moses and the burning bush, the angel of the Lord is interchanged with God which must have been Jesus. If it had been God himself he would have died.
Ex 3:1-6
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight — why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1 Kings 19:4-9
“I have had enough, LORD,” he said. “Take my life; I am no better than my ancestors.” 5 Then he lay down under the tree and fell asleep.
All at once an angel touched him and said, “Get up and eat.” 6 He looked around, and there by his head was a cake of bread baked over hot coals, and a jar of water. He ate and drank and then lay down again.
7 The angel of the LORD came back a second time and touched him and said, “Get up and eat, for the journey is too much for you.” 8 So he got up and ate and drank. Strengthened by that food, he traveled forty days and forty nights until he reached Horeb, the mountain of God. 9 There he went into a cave and spent the night.
And the word of the LORD came to him: “What are you doing here, Elijah?”
In this scripture I don’t believe that the angel heals Elijah but is a messenger to wake him up and show him the food. It says that it was the food that strengthened him, there is no mention of the angel healing or imparting strength here. Although again this is talking about The angel of the Lord which could have been Jesus here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isa 6:5-7
5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”
6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.”
…mmm, this is an interesting one. Here again though I would say it was the burning coal from the alter that cleansed Isaiah’s lips not the angel. The angel was the messenger carrying the coal, the angel himself did not actually do the cleansing.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Luke 1:11-15
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12 When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and was gripped with fear. 13 But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord.
Again here I believe that the angel is a messenger he does not actually heal Elizabeth himself. He just comes to tell them what God is going to do in answer to their prayers.
I also believe that whatever we put our trust in apart from God becomes an idol to us. We should be trusting God/Jesus to heal us and help us through life. If we are praying to angels and putting our trust in them to answer our prayers then this is idolatry and opens the door to fallen angels to answer our prayers and gain control of us.
In one of Todd Bentley’s videos on U-Tube he is calling the angels down himself.
I shared this with our members the other day and thought I would share it here as it seems their are a lot of people that are judging Todd Bentley:(
Today’s Bible Verse, Thought & Prayer for 07-02-08
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Matthew 7:2/NIV
Thought…
Jesus is concerned that we not have a critical spirit toward others, especially about their motives as to why they did something. We can’t assume to know another person’s heart; only God can. When we are unfairly critical, overly harsh, or unduly judgmental, we need to remember that God will use that same standard on us. I don’t know about you, but I need grace. So do those I love. I’m going to try very hard to be as gracious toward others as I’m trusting that God is going to be gracious with me.
Prayer…
Forgive me, Abba Father, for the times that I’ve been far more critical of others than I should be. Arouse within me a passion to be gracious toward others so that they can see your graciousness shining through me. In Jesus’ name I pray. Amen.
Regards,
The Joseph V. Bednarsky Jr. Ministries Forum Team.
http://joebednarsky.com/forum/index.php
What do you think of the Florida Outpouring revival in Lakeland Florida?
I hope anyone reading this will come and join my forum and add their input on this subject, all Biblical teachings are welcome.
http://joebednarsky.com/forum/index.php?topic=212.0
Julie,
Thanks for that informative post. Just be careful about suggesting that the ‘angel of the Lord’ in the Old Testament is Jesus. We just don’t know that at all. Also, the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, otherwise we have a God who gets confused. We humans get it mixed up because we are just that – human.
The identity of heavenly beings is one thing, but knowing the identity of God himself is another and far more vital. Angels are God’s servants, Jesus is His only Son and our Saviour.
Hi Peter,
I Was at the prophetic conference at Dudley this last weekend (good conf.)where prophet Charlie Robinson from Canada was speaking among others.He talked about the angel emma and said that he has seen her ministering at one of the meetings at which he was speaking (may have been a few years ago)and he said she was dressed like an oldish woman in a brown shawl.He also said that when Todd B visited Bob Jones (to minister at his meeting i think) Bob Jones was complaining afterwards that Todd had taken Emma back with him because she had not appeared at his meetings since!.So maybe Emma is ministering at Lakeland.Long live Emma’s ministry then if that is the case as long as God gets all the glory!
Hi Julian
My church was up in Dudley jsut for the Friday 4th July, having travelled up there from Harrow !! Did Charlie Robinson speak about Emma on the Friday at all or was it sometime during the rest of the weekend.
Julian, thanks for the further information about Emma. Indeed let her minister (plenty of NT examples of angels ministering, Julie) if God gets all the glory!
I caught you in a LIE Peter Kirk.
So you delete my entry.
Is that the man of God you really are???
Randy, I have deleted nothing you wrote. I don’t think anything you wrote has been caught for moderation or as spam either. It is just possible that it has. But your accusation that I was lying still stands in the comment thread above.
However, I will delete any further comments from you which accuse me of lying without giving proper evidence.
You accused me in comment 47432 above of lying, by which you apparently meant misrepresenting Todd’s position, when I wrote
In comment 47666 above I gave you a quote from Todd’s own website showing that this is his professed position, or at least the position of the ministry which he leads.
If you wish to continue to be welcome to comment here, please withdraw your accusation of lying with apologies.
Dear Julie,
Charlie Robinson spoke about the angel Emma on Saturday afternoon 5th July at Dudley 2.30pm.He also spoke about many other things to do with revival including the important fact that in every move of God the critics have always got it wrong!He was referring to critics of the Lakeland revival including those that condemn Todd because of his tatoos,talk of angels etc. Also he was talking about the hinderances to revival-with examples- and saying that the church is moving into a time of acceleration.
I think the CD of the meeting is available at revivalfires.org for £5 and is probably worth getting if anyone is interested.
from Julian G
What’s all this talk about Emma??- because Todd doesn’t know what you’re all talking about!!And there was me thinking this blog supported Todd, but it looks like they’re spreading nasty stories about him.
Mike, I as the author of this blog generally support Todd, but not all my commenters do. Thank you for the video link. Todd’s words in it are of course explained by the following words of Todd’s which I quoted here:
That is, Emma is an angel in female form, not a female angel, exactly as he said in the quote in this post.
I still see no evidence of angels healing in the OT. The four scriptures that you quoted as evidence Peter and I print in full in post 47835 show angels as messengers. Also the angel of the Lord in the OT is sometimes God as shown in Moses and the burning bush Exodus 3:1.
The NT says we are to minister healing through the gifts of the Holy Spirit 1Cor 12:4. If we deviate from this I believe we are opening ourselves up to the other side.
Peter you quote at the top of this post the following:
Third, it is an unwarranted generalisation to write that Emma “apparently ministers in his revival meetings” on the basis of an account of just one occasion when she turned up at a meeting. There is no indication that Todd ever saw her again. I have seen no suggestion that she has been reported as ministering at Lakeland.
However, in the youtube video ‘Todd Bentley Encounters With Angels’ (Link below) he is talking about an angel that launched his ministry (don’t know if this is Emma or not).
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
However it is an angel and he then goes onto say that the angel used to appear 30 times in a year and even though the angel does not appear to him now, he is still aware of its presence and people still see the angel themselves when they attend his meetings.
There is a lot about this video that is worrying. Not least his reference to Branham who did not believe in the Trinity. Also Jesus is not getting the glory in this video.
The angel causes him to come out of his body although he tries to justify this. You could say its an old video (2002 ish?) but this is talking about the whole launch of his ministry by an angel !! The same angel that launched Branham & Cain’s ministry. If things have changed then he needs to tell us because this is heavy stuff.
Thought you might be interested in our audio discussion at http://www.saffronplanet.net
Our approach was to make it clear that we are uncomfortable with what is going on in Lakeland but, mindful of those who are confused or affected by the “revival”, are gentle in our condemnation with lots of common sense and biblical insights.
Julie, thanks for the link to the video, another rather old one (no neck tattoos), not from Lakeland. This is not “Emma” but an angel Todd calls “he”. And there doesn’t seem to be any suggestion that this angel is ministering in healing – the angels’ task, as explained by Todd and also in Scripture, is to battle the demonic host. The video is not explicitly glorifying Jesus because it is teaching about another matter, but it ends with a reference to the second coming of Jesus.
As for Branham, if this account is at all accurate, he sounds like a genuine minister of God’s Word and his healing power who sadly, perhaps because he was never properly taught, lapsed into suspect theology. Paul Cain, like everyone on earth today including myself, has sinned, but he has also repented of his sins and should be forgiven.
Julie,
I think your basic assertion that angels are messengers and do not minister healing is misguided.Yes,we are all called to minister healing and many do including Todd at most of his meetings whether or not angels are present in them!
Also there are examples of angelic healing in the NT-the passage that talks about sick people waiting near a pool in Jerusalem for an angel that occasionally comes to stir the waters.Yes Jesus does come and personally heal one of them in that text as we are to do also but this does not distract from the fact that presumably God sent an angel there from time to time to heal-unless you say it was a demon which would be rather preposterous!Also after the temptation of our Lord for 40 days (think it was then) when he was tired God sent angels to him to minister strength and comfort to him (what can be more healing than that!) so to say that angels do not heal now in so-called NT times is putting them needlessly into a box.Thousands of them could be dancing on the head of a pin in Lakeland for all we know and i dont think we should be concerned if they were!
Also angels minister in spiritual warfare and we also are called to this ministry too.
Whether or not angels minister healing or do whatever they want in whoevers meetings is beside the point and you or anyone else should not let it become a stumbling block to genuine revival.God wants us in this current move of the Spirit to now move in the supernatural including awareness of the angelic and Kingdom realms so beware of stumbling blocks like angels,tattoos or anything else!
Thank you, Julian.
Yes Julian, angels did come and minister to Jesus after he was tempted. God sends rest to those in trial – excellent promise!
To get caught up about what we think Angels might or might not do should not really become an issue of too much importance, especially where other key issues are at stake. Yet, it is interesting to note what people say about Angels.
Our pastor related to me how a minister-friend of his had been saved from life as a satanist. His testimony included sightings of angels doing God’s work and a number of things that would shock so-called ‘western’ thinking. We are taught to move beyond ‘milk’ onto ‘meat’ in spiritual matters, and to not do so is to miss out (sometimes at great cost) on so many things.
Our sensitive minds still hold a pre-disposition against change, even when saved. We go through our walk with God easily enough – be good, do good, love, care, read the Word, pray etc. This is fair enough, but that ‘spiritual realm’ where the battle rages fiercest is so often a place too ‘scary’ or ‘unreal’ or whatever for the way we naturally are. We remain fixed in a comfort zone (which is no comfort really because of the lack we create by our inaction and doubt).
Let’s always go forwards, seeking more of God and his purposes.
Yes i agree with you jamie thanks
53473
Hi Julian
Replying to your comment on 53473.
You say:
Also there are examples of angelic healing in the NT-the passage that talks about sick people waiting near a pool in Jerusalem for an angel that occasionally comes to stir the waters.
My Comment:
I’m not sure what the answer to the pool of Bethesda is (John 5:7). However it does not say that an angel stirred the waters in the bible passage.
Scripture does say though that we are to heal through the Holy Spirit by the gifts given to those who are born again by him. 1Cor 12:4-8
Your Comment:
Also after the temptation of our Lord for 40 days (think it was then) when he was tired God sent angels to him to minister strength and comfort to him (what can be more healing than that!)
My Comment
A lot of things can be more healing than this. I don’t see this as healing but as strengthening. This does not convince me.
Your Comment
So to say that angels do not heal now in so-called NT times is putting them needlessly into a box. Thousands of them could be dancing on the head of a pin in Lakeland for all we know and I don’t think we should be concerned if they were!
Also angels minister in spiritual warfare and we also are called to this ministry too.
My Comment
I don’t think it is needlessly putting them into a box. I believe fallen angels can mimic healing up to a point and mislead us. And I’m quite happy for thousands of them to be dancing on the head of a pin provided they are not ministering healing. I believe ones that minister healing are not from God. I do believe that angels do warfare on our behalf, bring us messages, can appear to us as humans to help us. I have friends this has happened to. I don’t believe they are allowed to bring healing.
My husband was into the occult (through Dungeons & Dragons at university) before he became a Christian. I have been talking to him about this and he agrees with me on the above. We also both pray for people for healing and deliverance.
Having said all of that I could be missing something along the line. Next Sunday we are visiting St Andrews, Chorleywood. The ministers here have been to Florida and been prayed for by Todd Bentley and come back endued with power. My friend who ministers there has seen a leg grow in front of her eyes as she has ministered to them and as her and a few others prayed a deaf person was healed. I know my friend would be calling on the Holy Spirit and not on angels.
The only thing I can think is that in the same meeting you can all be getting what you are asking for. The one who is praying to God receives from God and the one who is praying to angels receives from angels.
I for one though won’t knowingly let anyone lay hands on me who has received healing and impartations from angels.
Matt 7:22-24
22 Many will say to me on that day , ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Julie wrote:
Julie, you are free to believe this if you wish. But I don’t think you have any basis to do so other than your own imagination. There is even less in the Bible about fallen angels ministering, or mimicking, healing than there is about God’s angels doing so.
You are of course right to imply that we should “be calling on the Holy Spirit and not on angels”. No one here, or in Lakeland, is saying that we should call on angels to heal. That would be wrong, and ineffective because angels only do God’s bidding, not ours. What we are saying is that we ask God the Holy Spirit to heal and he sends his angels to put his will into effect (Hebrews 1:14), to bring his healing power. I think this is your basic misunderstanding of what Todd is doing.
Yes i agree with you peter that we call upon god and god is free to command an angel to minister healing to us or the holy spirit (usually)or both.I do not think todd prays to angels either but maybe he talks to them i dont know!i do not think there is any scriptural basis julie for believing that angels cannot heal us if god so desires despite what you say and i dont think you can automatically assume that if one does then it must be a fallen angel but i will study the matter more fully in the bible etc
I know we are called to heal and also that occultists use fallen angels or demons-there is a conference of false angelic healing in birmingham in september but that doesnt invalidate the reality of Gods kingdom in operation.
Also when you say you wont receive prayer from one that has benn touched or imparted by angels julie-how would you necessarily know if any given speaker or prayer team member at your church or at a conference in another church had in fact been touched by angels in this way?if you receive any prayer at many ‘river’ churches today then you probably will have been prayed for someone who ha either been directly or indirectly been touche by angels in this way.
You would probably have to find some old fusty traditionalist church somewhere (and even many of these have been touched by toronto or lakeland!) in order NOT to find anyone who has not been influenced in this way by this current move of god!
Just been on the dudley revival fires website and i notice that there is a free podcast available from trevor baker on ‘the angelic realm and healing’ which is what we have been talking about so it may be informative!
Also the website says that todd bentley will be at the NEC birmingham september 20-23 for anyone that is interested!
Thanks, Julian. I have already reported on Todd’s September visit to Birmingham (not of course to be confused with “a conference of false angelic healing”) here.
Dear Julie,
I think you may be wrong about the bible not stating that it was an angel that healed the people at the pool of bethesda by the stirring of the waters.
I have just looked at several translations online.The verse that states it was an angel is John 5.4 although some translations omit this verse for some reason,some say ‘angel of the lord’ others just ‘angel’.Angels do far more than just fight demons and bring messages.
Even according to Johns revelation they pour out disease and affliction in the last days so i am sure if they can bring gods judgement in this way they can also bring gods mercy in healing.
Thanks peter for the link to one of your other articles which i will look at when i have time.
It is interesting why some bibles do not contain John 5:4 as it must have been in Jeromes Vulgate bible and is in the King James but in some versions like the new international version it is only included in the footnotes which is strange as the context of the chapter actually makes very little sense when this verse is omitted.Maybe this reflects some kind of modern intellectual bias in the compilers of the NIV i dont know
Julian, that verse is not in most modern Bibles because it is not in the oldest surviving manuscripts, nor in fact in the earliest editions of the Vulgate. These are of course hard to understand without this verse, which explains why it was added later. It could be that something like this verse was in the original and later dropped out. But it is unlikely that words which are first found in 5th century manuscripts are part of the original text.
If the devil can appear as an angel of light, what about his own servants? When we open ourselves up to the spiritual realm we encounter both (although we are on the right side…).
God ministers healing. There is no other source. How he does it – the ‘mechanism of healing’ if you like, is a point of understanding God’s method rather than his will and desire. We can debate all our lives over how God accomplishes certain things and the only conclusion we will get is ‘it’s a mystery’.
Who would have thought God would send his only Son to die for an undeserving people?
Who would have thought that Jesus would heal different people with the same illness in different ways?
Do we seek the method, or the Saviour?
How concerned are we, really, with how God ministers his purposes? Let’s keep discernment but not get so picky over how ‘God surely should do things this way or that way’ that we miss out on the bigger picture.
Hi Julian
Thanks for that. I just realised at lunch time that that was the case as we have a Christian union here and were discussing the issues. I came back to the web site to add something to find that you already had.
Its strange because I thought I had looked up the NKJV and didn’t see the verse there.
Need to go back to the drawing board with this one !!! Although I think Peter Kirk has hit the nail on the head here. So it does seem that the Lord can use angels to heal but obviously not with us commanding them as Peter Kirk says.
In the meantime I still have major problems with Todd Bentley, not least his connections with Branham and Paul Cain who was trained by Branham
(There is a link below that is well referenced, about Branham, I’ve yet to go through the Wikipedia entry). I’ve already mentioned this but he explicitly states in an earlier u-tube video that the same angel that started his ministry started Branham’s and Paul Cains. Now that might be an old video around 2002 I would say but I don’t believe this has changed.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
Here is some food for thought in the meantime. Branham claimed the following
‘One thing which characterized his meetings was his total dependence upon an angel. When his angel would show up then supernatural events and manifestations would begin to occur. Once he was asked if it was the Holy Spirit that did these things in his meetings. What was Branham’s response? No, my angel does these things!’
Quoted from the link below. A lot of info is well referenced here. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/AlphaRoots_Branham_LatterRain.htm
Video below is Todd Bentley wearing his living sacrifice t shirt with 2 snakes entwined and he admits to this. Although you can’t see the snakes that well in this video, take a look at ‘Living Sacrifices’ web page where they sell the shirts. (Living Sacrifice are supposed to be a Christian rock band)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LTw-TDdEdx0
Living Sacrifice T Shirts
http://www.zambooie.com/stores/?st_id=01
Todd Bentley calling the angels down directly
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nIUOwfBEYfk
Hi Julian
Thanks for that. I just realised at lunch time that that was the case as we have a Christian union here and were discussing the issues. I came back to the web site to add something to find that you already had.
Its strange because I thought I had looked up the NKJV and didn’t see the verse there.
Need to go back to the drawing board with this one !!! Although I think Peter Kirk has hit the nail on the head here. But it does seem that the Lord can use angels to heal but obviously not with us commanding them as Peter Kirk says.
In the meantime I still have major problems with Todd Bentley, not least his connections with Branham and Paul Cain who was trained by Branham (There is a link below that its well referenced, about Branham, I’ve yet to go through the Wikipedia entry. He explicitly states in an earlier u-tube video that the same angel that started his ministry started Branham’s and Paul Cains. Now that might be an old video around 2002 I would say but I don’t believe this has changed.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk
Here is some food for thought in the meantime. Branham claimed the following
‘One thing which characterized his meetings was his total dependence upon an angel. When his angel would show up then supernatural events and manifestations would begin to occur. Once he was asked if it was the Holy Spirit that did these things in his meetings. What was Branham’s response? No, my angel does these things!’
Quoted from the link below. A lot of info is well referenced here. http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/AlphaRoots_Branham_LatterRain.htm
Todd Bentley wearing his living sacrifice t shirt with 2 snakes entwined. Although you can’t see the snakes that well in this video, take a look at ‘Living Sacrifices’ web page where they sell the shirts. (Living Sacrifice are supposed to be a Christian rock band)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=LTw-TDdEdx0
Living Sacrifice T Shirts
http://www.zambooie.com/stores/?st_id=01
Todd Bentley calling the angels down directly
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nIUOwfBEYfk
Julie, sorry your comment was caught for moderation. Please check before reposting. Branham was obviously a flawed person who had a real healing gift from God. What point are you trying to make about Todd’s t-shirt?
In the last video you reference Todd is asking someone, presumably God (but the context has been edited out as so often), to open the heavens and send or release angels. Later he explicitly says “God send the angels, Father send the angels”. He is not addressing angels. Out of context this seems over the top. But what really upsets me is the song at the end of the video “Satan is real, working with power”, with no mention of God, which is pure Satan worship. May God preserve me and anyone who has the misfortune to listen to this from the spiritual danger of listening to these words. I claim the protection of the blood of Christ against this lie. Satan has been utterly defeated, he has no power to work in this world, he has no authority on this blog, he has been utterly defeated by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross and his resurrection and ascension into heaven.
Hi Peter
Sorry about that. I think the very last link in my last post is the wrong video. There is one without all of that writing all over it, which I do not like as it is very emotive and not based on facts. And alot of them exagerate what is going on.
I also Posted the same post twice as I thought it hadn’t gone. So you also need to remove the post that is still there and I will resend.
The point about the snakes is just that I don’t expect to see a mature christian wearing a T-Shirt with snakes on it as they depict the enemy.
Will re-write and respond more fully to above posts in the next couple of days when I have some time.
Thanks, Julie. My main problem with that video was with the Satan-glorifying jingle at the end of it. Todd’s opponents ruin their case by exaggerating it, and perhaps reveal the real spirit behind what they are doing.
I agree snakes can depict the enemy. But snakes are also part of God’s creation which he said was good. I don’t know much about the band “Living Sacrifice”, but I see no reason to doubt that they are a genuine Christian group.
Peter Kirk’s comment
Todd’s opponents ruin their case by exaggerating it
My Comment
Yes, I have to agree with you there.
Eureka, we agree on something !!! 😉
Dear brothers and sisters
I greet you in the love of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.
I write to you to plead the case of Todd Bentley, our brother in Christ.
It has weighed heavy on my heart the different attitudes and opinions that fellow Christians have shown to Todd.
This morning I am reading the gospel of John and was once again reminded by the words of Jesus when He prayed to the Father on our behalf. “May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.” John 17:23b and also;
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” John 13:34-35
I ask you this, how is your criticism and condemnation of Todd demonstrating any of the above commands of Jesus?
It reminds me so much of the Pharisees who tried to find fault with Jesus when he healed a man born blind. John 9. In verse 24-25 “A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.” He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!” and verse 33, “…if this man were not from God, he could do nothing.” Tens of thousands have been healed directly or indirecly as a result of the revival in Florida, and many have given their hearts to Jesus, bringing glory to God. How is this a bad thing? Look at the fruit!
I ask you again; who’s work are you doing; who are you glorifying by your words and attitudes?
Sincerely and with love in Jesus,
Pieter Siebert
Pieter, thank you. Yes, those are good verses you quote. If Todd were not from God, there is no way that he could have done what has done and glorified God in doing so.
Hi, with reference to the verse John 5:4 previously about an angel stirring the waters of the pool of bethseda which is missing from some bibles i think the reference was added to later manuscripts because the memory of why people gathered at the pool was probably lost after the jewish dispersal after the destruction of jerusalem so later readers (and gentile readers too)needed to be told why the waters were stirred and by whom.
I think it is a very important verse and chapter for our times today,especially the current move of God in Lakeland Florida and the subsequent move in the U.K
The day after i last posted about the missing John verse i was at Dudley and prophet Charlie Robinson was there and he said there was a pool of God’s anointing at the front of the hall and He was moving the waters so we should get in!I was prayed for then and had a strong anointing.
I am now in Bath at Bath City Church and the founder of Bath Abbey had a vision of angels ascending and descending upon the city and there is a stone ladder on the front of the abbey with angels on it to commemorate the vision.Prophet Rob de Luca who prophesied the florida revival is here ministering and he mentioned the vision of the angels on the abbey front when he was speaking.Bath has always been a place of worship and a centre of healing (much of it non-christian) when people came to the hot waters to bathe.I believe that John 5 is beginning to be fulfilled now in Bath and around the UK and there was a very powerful anointing in the meeting last night after Rob spoke when people were being prayed for.
Praise God and let revival be ignited in the UK and spread through the nation!
Thanks, Julian. I have been in a similar “pool of anointing” situation. The teaching about healing occurring when the water is stirred is clear in the undisputed John 5:7, although without an angel being specified as the agent of stirring. Yes, Bath can be very much the English Bethesda, or Bath-esda, and I know the City Church is doing a great job. To your final prayer, Amen!
Thanks peter for your reply,
Yes i also believe there is a link spiritually with Bath and Bethesda.You mentioned ‘Bath-esda’which i feel is appropriate.Since i believe you may have some experience with ancient languages can you tell me what the name ‘Bethesda’ actually means in its original language and is there any connection linguistically or otherwise with the name ‘Bath’ as i feel the link between the two is important at this time in that city especially in this current move of God to the UK.
I am believing for the release of John 5 in that city and that Bath is and will be an important strategic centre spiritually in the UK especially in the upcoming UK revival.
Julian,
Re: Bethesda.
It was originally called the upper pool and was believed to be used for washing animals prior to their sacrifice in the temple, thus giving the pools a special sense of purity or healing.
The name itself could be from several sources. It could be ‘house of grace’, or something similar – the wordplay in some of the old languages allows for some significant discrepancy. If you’ve got a good commentary there may well be some information in there, or in a good Bible encyclopedia.
Julian, the meaning of “Bethesda” is uncertain, but it is almost certainly a combination of the Hebrew or Aramaic beth “house” with some other element. My own preference is for the second element being hasda, the Aramaic equivalent of Hebrew hesed often translated “loving-kindness” or “steadfast love”, or, less accurately, “mercy”. See this page.
This page confirms my expectation that the city name “Bath” comes from the English word “bath”, compare German “Bad” which is also used for spa towns. “Original sense was of heating, not immersing in water.” This word is not related to the Hebrew beth.
Nevertheless there may be some spiritual significance in the coincidental similarity of names. I am reminded of John 7:37-39. Bath as the location of the only natural hot spring in England is significant for the outpouring of the Spirit in this country.
Yes thanks for that jamie and peter,
Very interesting that the original meaning of bath was that of heating!When i went to Bath City Church last week there was certainly a fire-like anointing released which surprised me.The springs are only hot because of volcanic activity and this has a symbolic significance spiritually i think.Also ‘house of grace/mercy’is a strange name for a pool but a good one for a church so this is a good link to that passage!
Taken from entry 53711 Peter Kirk
My Comment
I believe fallen angels can mimic healing up to a point and mislead us. … I believe ones that minister healing are not from God. … I don’t believe they are allowed to bring healing.
Peters Comment
Julie, you are free to believe this if you wish. But I don’t think you have any basis to do so other than your own imagination. There is even less in the Bible about fallen angels ministering, or mimicking, healing than there is about God’s angels doing so.
My Comment
The whole point is that there are no examples of angels doing any healing in the Bible.
In Judges 13:3 The angel of the Lord appears to Manoah’s wife and she is healed of her infertility. We know in the OT that ‘The angel of the Lord’ is God as shown at Exodus 3:1-6 Moses and the burning bush. Also at Judges 13:22 Manoah & his wife realise they have seen God.
Peters Comment
You are of course right to imply that we should “be calling on the Holy Spirit and not on angels”.
No one here, or in Lakeland, is saying that we should call on angels to heal.
That would be wrong, and ineffective because angels only do God’s bidding, not ours.
What we are saying is that we ask God the Holy Spirit to heal and he sends his angels to put his will into effect (Hebrews 1:14), to bring his healing power. I think this is your basic misunderstanding of what Todd is doing.
Julie’s Comment
On the one hand Todd Bentley seems to be saying in his document ‘Angelic Hosts’ http://www.etpv.org/2003/angho.html
that angels are just present and not actually doing the healing when the Holy Spirit moves but on the other hand he defends angels doing healing.
On p2 of this document he says that he has had visitations from a healing angel like the one which stirred the waters at Bethesda.
On p4 he says “And whenever this angel shows up the miracles go off the charts.”
Todd Bentley has the link on his web site http://www.freshfire.ca/?Id=1059&pid=993 (End of the linked page) to Dr Greig (theologian) giving a defence of his ministry. At section 8 he seems to be giving a defence as to why angels can heal as he answers the question below. He is answering the objection that only the “Holy Spirit heals, not angels”……
Objection 8: “No Scripture supports the idea that the Holy Spirit bestows
healing mantles through His angels. Only the Holy Spirit heals, not angels.”
Dr Greig goes on to defend angels healing on p38 of this document by using the Judges 3 quote about Manoah and his wife but ‘The Angel of the Lord’ is God here as quoted earlier. When it is an angel the verse will talk about ‘an’ angel as in Luke 1:11 when the angel appears to Zechariah in the temple to tell him Elizabeth will conceive etc
The point here is that Dr Greig believes it is ok for angels to heal because he is defending the point. This is Ok’d by Todd Bentley because on his web site he says he had read it and is in agreement with what Dr Greig says.
Dr Greig also uses the pool of Bethesda quote (John 5:7). However you cannot develop doctrine from one verse of scripture especially when the word angel does not appear in the earlier manuscripts.
Even if it was an angel we don’t know what sort of angel.
Earlier in the blog I said I didn’t think it could be demonic but I wonder now. You have places like Lourdes in France where over 60 proven and documented miracles have taken place. They resulted in people worshiping Mary who we know is only human (although an amazing woman and example of faith) which of course is idolatory.
http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml
The NT definitely says that healing should come from the Holy Spirit by the healing gift being given to individuals in the body of Christ as he wills. 1Cor 12:4-8.
In the ‘Angelic Hosts’ document there is an over emphasis on angels. It leaves you thinking that the Holy Spirit cannot heal unless these angels are present. This subtly starts to say that they have more power than the Holy Spirit. This leads you to start going to them to get answers to prayer which is not putting your trust in Jesus / God. Which in turn is idolatory.
The NT does not say that we need to ask God for angels for the Holy Spirit to move. Passages that refer to the spiritual gifts Rom 15:19, Gal 3:5; Heb 2:4; 1 Thess 5:19 do not mention our need to ask God for angels. There is no mention of the Holy Spirit not being able to work without warring angels present.
I think this teaching is subtly designed to take our eyes away from the Lord and solely trusting in him for our healing or whatever our need may be.
On p2 of the ‘Angelic Hosts’ document it says “Your word says that angels encamp around those who fear You. There is no-where in the bible that says this.
It does say in Ps 34:7
‘The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.’
Again the angel of the Lord here is God in the OT. Emphasis on ‘The’ rather than ‘an’ angel.
On the last page of the Angelic Hosts’ document it talks about eating fruit from the tree of life. This links into the ‘Latter Rain’ theology which teaches that we can completely rule and reign now by becoming super saints and gaining immortality now.
It would also appear to link into Kundalini teaching.
http://www.deceptionbytes.com/Todd-Bentleys-Fire-of-Kundalini
It is a serpent spirit behind Kundalini.
So in light of this I thought the video clip of Stacey Campbell prophesying over Todd Bentley was interesting.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gjl5wKso9eU
My husband who was sitting next to me on my computer and not watching what I was doing thought I had tuned into a nature programme and was watching a rattle snake !!!
I know earlier in this blog you refute this by saying, listen to what she is saying. Well even if what she is saying is true so were the words of the woman who followed Paul before he turned round and cast a spirit out of her. Acts 16:17
Anyway, all of this is looking very dangerous from where I am sitting. I do not believe this is true revival. At one point I was thinking that it could be a mixture but as I research it I think so less and less.
Julie, thanks for your comment which I rescued from the spam trap. But you have failed to answer my point that “There is even less in the Bible about fallen angels ministering, or mimicking, healing than there is about God’s angels doing so.” If what happens today is only what happened in the Bible, which I dispute, then Todd cannot be healing by the power of fallen angels. Indeed your argument proves (based on your premises, which I don’t accept) the validity of Todd’s ministry! There is no question of “the Holy Spirit not being able to work without warring angels present”, it is the Holy Spirit who sends these angels!
The trouble is Peter that you only seem to have one argument, which shouts Todd is great Todd must be right.
You do not seem to be answereing Julie’s post by point.
You seem to be like the preacher who used to put in his written sermons. Shout here the argument is weak.
Please answer Julies’ well thought out contribution on a point by point basis. She derserves respect for the time she must have taken to do her researches.
Des.
Latest on Todd – Files for Divorce???
http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/deception/ToddB.htm
Thank you, Desmond. See my response to the latest news here.
Thanks Desmond for your support. I suppose though it is fair to say that I didn’t answer Peter’s question either, partly because I didn’t quite understand the double negative at the time.
Thanks Peter, it was gracious of you to rescue me from the spam filter, especially as I’m filling your server up !!
Am I correct in thinking that what you are saying Peter is that no where in the bible does it give examples of fallen angels doing any healing. – I will answer this further down.
Peter you also give a quote that implies that I believe that ‘what happens today can only happen if it is in the Bible’.
Well I don’t actually believe that. I do believe the Bible is inspired by God but it still has to be interpreted. So for example, there is a quote in one of Todd Bentley’s meetings where the pastor’s wife ends up running around barking like a dog and clucking like a chicken.
There can be all sorts of manifestations if the Holy Spirit is on someone and I don’t think we have to have an example of every one in the bible for it to be legitimate.
However for this particlur case I don’t agree with it because of the following:
The bible says that we are made in God’s image. It also refers to dogs in quite a derogatory way. In Rev 22:15 it speaks of those ‘dogs’ that practise magic arts and end up outside of the kingdom of God, in hell. In Phil 3:2 Watch out for those dogs , those men who do evil.
From this I conclude that God’s Holy Spirit would not have someone made in His image barking like a dog and therefore I conclude it must be an evil spirit.
Now getting back to the bit about fallen angels doing healings in the bible. There are no examples of this, this is true. However the bible does say
At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. 22 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect — if that were possible. Mark 13:21-22
The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 2 Thess 2:8-10
From this I conclude that miracles are different from signs and wonders and will be of the healing variety. If Satan caused the sickness he can easily remove it.
These are going to be pretty convincing signs and miracles if they are ‘nearly’ capeable of deceiving the elect. There is also reference to a healing miracle in Rev 13:12 where the beast with the fatal wound is healed and so deceived the inhabitants of the earth.
Satan is a fallen angel along with a third of the other angels and they are opposed to God and behind the bad ‘end times’ things that are going to happen so this leads me to conclude that angels will be behind the fatal wound that is healed and that there will be other healings performed by them.
I also believe fallen angels can heal because of what happens at Lourdes causing people to worship Mary which is idolatory. These two miracles are out and out documented supernatural physical healings on the link below.
http://olrl.org/stories/lourdes.shtml
Deut 13:1-4
13:1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
Going back to what I said in my previous blog, Todd claims to not be healing through angels (he knows this would not be accepteable) but yet he contradicts this as my previous blog suggests.
He is also linking himself to Branham and Paul Cain by their angel. Branham was always off the rails as he was brought up in the occult and publically claimed to minister through his angel and not the Holy Spirit. Paul Cain was his child prodigee and they are all into latter rain theology.
See link below, well referenced.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~emcd/AlphaRoots_Branham_LatterRain.htm
I am obviously still praying about all this as I know despite head knowledge it is still possible to be completely wrong. I still find it difficult to believe that Satan can do real physical healings despite the evidence I have come across. However, I do know that through prayer and repentance I can have my own personal revival as I have experienced this and I do not need to run after Todd Bentley.
For the record, our previous youth pastor was prayed for by Todd BEntley at Lakeland and was healed of deafness in one ear.
The miracles that are happenint at St Andrew’s, Chorleywood have increased since the leaders have been to Lakeland and had hands laid on them.
A close friend of mine ministered to a man at St Andrews and his leg grew (although this was the least of his worries as he looked like he had had a stroke or something down one side). She said though, she had been on the ministry team for ages and things definitely started to happen when the leaders got back from Lakeland.
Hi Peter
I replied yesterday, Sun 17th Aug to your entry 67223 regarding fallen angels doing healing in the bible.
I think it has been caught by your spam filter again, would you be so kind as to release it for me again.
Kind Regards
Julie Steadman
Julie, your comment was indeed caught as spam, and I have retrieved it. I am glad that you are open to genuine healing ministry linked to Lakeland.
I think we can agree that in the Bible God heals, and Satan also heals or at least feigns healing. But there is nowhere in the Bible where either angels or demons are linked with healing. So when we read reports today of angels ministering healing, we may be sceptical but we have no warrant to conclude that this is genuine but satanic. Meanwhile I find it hard to understand why some people behave like animals when touched by the Holy Spirit, but I don’t presume to understand this so well that I can make unqualified assertions as to what is not from God.
I have been blessed by Todd Bently and Roy Fields.
I have rededicated my life to God and am being obedient to the Word. I love you Todd and I ask God to bless you every day.
Thank you, Frances. I am glad that even in these difficult days for Todd people like you are standing by him and the genuineness of his ministry.
Hi Peter
I posted a comment about my fears that the charismatic movement was being hi-jacked by the ‘Latter Rain’ movement. I think its ended up in the spam filter again.
Please could you retrieve it. Thanks
…ignore my last comment.
I wrote this comment on the other blog. I’m just losing it and getting paranoid !!! 😉
Julie, if you find that comment, I would be interested to read it and discuss that issue. Please post a link here.
Hi Peter
Its on your ‘Message from Trevor Baker about todd’ and is number 91668.
Julie, thanks for bringing this up again. The comment you refer to is here. Well, basically where we differ is that you presuppose that Latter Rain theology is false. I don’t. I agree that some of Branham’s theology was false. But I have not seen any clear indications that either Paul Cain or Bob Jones hold any specifically false theology.
I just looked at Wikipedia’s summary of Latter Rain theology to refresh my memory. I would not accept the idea of “the Manifest Sons of God” as a distinct class of Christians, although many of their characteristics are things all Christians should to aspire to. I accept most of the rest of the Latter Rain teaching described here. But note this from the same article:
I would stand with leaders such as Wagner, Cain and Bob Jones in “The Modern charismatic movement”, allowing that I have been influenced by Latter Rain ideas but not accepting the whole package. I am sure that similar ideas are accepted at St Andrew’s, Chorleywood, so is what is accepted at your church really that different? Perhaps you have just been reading a bit too much disinformation from those anti-charismatic sites which are trying to taint us all with ideas we have never held.
MY RESPONSE TO A CRITIC.
Hi Andrew Storm, please were you at anytime a practicing member of the New Age Movement & did you ever use or study the said New Age Handbook that you have so readily quoted? Your jaundiced position and that of your fellow traveler on Tod Bentley and the Florida Revival is akin to the same position taken by the Pharisees when they witnessed the manifestations of Jesus Christ. Their informed response or interpretation of the healings & testimonies following Christ’ ministry was that He is demonized & the miracles were an offshoot of his satanic roots. However when the Samaritan woman, was told about her life, she responded by saying, that Christ Must have the Spirit of God in Him, for no man could know her life’s story except if God revealed them to that person. This is a woman that supposedly has no root in Abraham!
Andrew Storm, & all the nay sayers, please stay at home and criticize what’s happening in Florida as a sure sign of your deeming sight (ELI’s Lights Out Annointing). Use biblical passages all you can, to prove that Tod & all the people of God pressing in are in error, not surprising, Satan also used the bible during the temptation…”for it is written, He shall give His angels guard over you…”
Another traveler said that God only speaks via his Word as seen in the bible, but he spoke from heaven during the transfiguration saying …”this is my beloved son…” and before then, there was no record of that word in the Torah. The New Testament testifies about the word & the laws God gave in the Torah.
Rev Fredrick from NC, the Holy Spirit is neither a feeling nor a falling, and the Holy Spirit can manifest any how, and in anyway, as fire, as electric shock, as whatever. You may not even feel a thing, though the woman with the issue of blood “felt in herself”. If God said lay hands, go right ahead, if He says kick, push, Bam or whatever… once it is God that said it, He will manifest Himself in the action!
Why on earth do you guys, pastors, disciples & whatever name/title you all go by, find it hard to understand and accept the ministry of angels? Paul said …”for an angel of God spoke to me during the night…”, and an angel assisted Peter out of prison, angels were present during Jesus’ ministry on earth (back in the day). Angels, have names, God has a name, and He revealed his name to us, He also told us the name of His Son- Christ, and some prophets and judges in the Torah (principally Moses) gave us the names of some angels: Gabriel, Michael… so what is the problem if a minister of God, says to us that an angel appeared to him to commission the work given to him, and the Angel identified himself by name EMMA? Why do you have to rush into the New Age handbook, or Buddhist handbook, or Mormon handbook, or the Koran, to compare if there have been any mention of a similar name among them. Why not go further and compare the name Gabriel & Michael to the angels mentioned in these religions & shout Nay! Moses and co lied about Gabriel, or is MOSES and co greater than God in us? An angel went before Joshua, and God PROMISED to send his angels before us during our ministry… “don’t say b4 my angel that you did it or said it in error” Which angel is God referring to?
That you have had no such experience does not invalidate the experiences of other sons of God whose hearts are perfect before him. If not then DON`T BREATHE WHAT YOU CAN`T SEE!!!
Ministries are like salvation, it is to be received or rejected. However, your rejection of it does not nullify its effectiveness. What you desire in God will be communicated to you by God through human vessels primarily: God may chose to deal directly to you through other means, HE IS GOD & THERE IS NO OTHER!
To Tod, He visited in one way, & to Peter Wagner, He dealt differently, and to you Andrew Storm, His dealings with you can be likened to the ‘man with the measuring rod’… ‘ …and he measured again another 1000cubit foot, and said “come hither”…
So my question to you is, How far can you go? Can you walk a thousand cubit foot into the supernatural with God or with His angel?
Whatever happened to the “eyes have not seen nor ears heard” promises of Christ. My wife introduced Tod Bentley ministry into our home; and I took the Pharisee position on Tod’s ministry, and viewed him with mixed feeling/opinion. I was of course careful not to wrongly judge him. Several salient issues befuddled my mind, for one, tattoo ministers were not common place, and this Jean & T-shirt thing in the pulpit was equally different, so I folded my hand & watched. The same way you guys are watching, but wrongfully judging the oil upon the life & ministry of this servant of God, judging another man’s servant.
Some of us religiously claim to rather follow God and never man, well for your information, Paul commanded his listeners to ‘be ye followers of me, just like I follow Christ’ Yes it is true that you are ultimately a God chaser, HOWEVER, there are leadership God has raised in midst of you, so follow them. THEY SHALL NOT BREAK THEIR RANKS, THERE ARE NO INDEPENDENTS IN THIS GOD’S BUSINESS, YOU ARE EITHER A REPUBLICAN, OR A DEMOCRAT (excuse my French).
The Israelites had the Torah, BUT God also gave them Judges, they read the Torah diligently, but God still went ahead to institute & ordain the Levetical priesthood.
This can be explained as ‘the focus of the foci’, meaning that as you follow God reading His Torah, God is equally raising governmental authorities in the midst of you, that will teach, help you discern more accurately, prophesy for a release of faith, plant, pull down and establish patterns. (!)
This brings us to ‘the eyes have not seen, many sided wisdom of God’. The fact that we have no account of such experience in the bible does not invalidate the out working of the spirit of God. We must come to terms with the truth that there are mantles in Heaven whose operation has NEVER been witnessed on planet earth! Of course we saw in revelation that the four horse men are still going to ride. That’s a strange mantle, never before seen, and never again after that. The book of Joel described such movement as…”the like of whom has never been; nor will there ever be any such after them, even for many successive generation…”!!
So guys open your ridiculous little minds up, and get ready for more challenging encounters by God. Get ready for new moves of God that will make you a lot more bitter & critical or make a believer out of you.
I now whole heartedly believe that Tod Bentley is a fundamentally intrinsic part of this new wave …”they do not break ranks, they do not push one another, everyone marches in his own column…before them… the stars diminish their brightness…”!!! (who are these stars that are diminishing?)
That’s were we are now, the end time army, a strange army, a regimented army, men that has hungered and thirsted after righteousness, and their hunger has birthed several other hungry disciples globally.
Tod is hungry & thirsty, Tod and his fellow travelers are pushing into strange things in righteousness, stuff some of us have not really seen, but have only heard about.
In conclusion, remember Christ admonition to his disciples: Mat 10:24-25 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?
Ike, thank you.
😉
This man will have alot to answer for, promoting satanism, and passing it of as christianity.
Where is the Love of Jesus in him, when he is so aggressive in his nature? (not the nature of the Holy Spirit of God, gentle as a dove)
It’s time for America to awaken, instead of fornicating with this flith.
By the way I choose my words carefully.
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I haven’t read this incredibly lengthy blog in it’s entirety, but can’t help responding to some of the comments with:
Don’t some people like to think they know best? I’ve ceased contact with several “bible websites” because they’re just used for people to play “I can sound more righteous than you can” games; So many people who tag themselves Christian yet are reluctant to widen their petty views of what God can do and is doing… I can imagine how some of them would have reacted to some of the balmy things the Old Testament Prophets were called to do “… surely lying on your side… NAKED… in public? That can’t be of God!” “He can’t be a prophet of God, he’s married to a PROSTITUTE!” Take a lesson from Mary “… She treasured these things in her heart…” Take a lesson from Joyce Mayer “… I believe God gave us two ears, two eyes and ONE mouth for a reason… ” I suppose now there’s going to be endless comments about whether I’ve likened Joyce Mayer to the BVM… Oh using the term BVM I suppose people will think I’m Catholic – except it’s not very respectful is it – perhaps I’m anti-Catholic….. Thank you Yahweh, my Daddy in Heaven that you are bigger than ALL these petty minded politically-corrected arguers. Thank you, Rabbi Yashua bar Yahweh that I can pray in Your name and know that you are the soon-coming King! The sooner the better – beam me up, Scotty!!!
And thank you, Tim.
My observation is that Todd just likes to have fun. He gets fun tripping on “the anointing”, he has fun preaching, and bamming, and with young women, bikes, death metal, booze, talking to the dead, ultimate fighting, body building. Quite a likable guy really. But too much addiction to fun-fun-fun all the time.
Thank you – Peter Kirk. Beam me up Cpt. Kirky!
Roy, you may well be right. But God doesn’t want church etc to be deadly boring, having fun is not in itself wrong.
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Peter
Its very interesting reading these blogs! I for one feel that I have come full circle in my understanding of the Charismatic church. I started off in the Bretheren, where I was taught how to conduct a close relationship with the Lord, and to hear His voice in my daily life. Then, I read G.Coates, who preached against all this and went for the whole prophet and apostles today doctrine, and this distracted me. But now I see so much doctrinal nonsense being promoted, a la Bentley and Coates, that I have returned to my roots. I would rather hear the voice of the Lord directly from the word and seek His face daily. The enemy’s strategy has appeared to be about making God’s people ignorant of His word, then throwing in a load of subtle errors which will lead to bigger ones. I even saw on a Pioneer website the other day, that in a forthcoming worship seminar, the leaders were going to give God a new experience! Now come on, admit it, that is dangerous doctrinal error, but no one in that stream seems to realise it!!!Whatever next?
John, I’m not quite sure what your objection is to the idea of giving God a new experience. At first sight it sounds strange. But God has given us humans a measure of creativity to do new things which even God has not experienced before. If for example at this worship seminar new songs are going to be sung, not even God has heard them being sung before, at least by a large group. So it will be in a sense a new experience for God – and hopefully a good one. Now I can see that this kind of wording can be unhelpful hype (I would need to see the context to determine whether that is true in this case), but it is not necessarily doctrinal error.
Various views have been expressed here about Todd Bentley.
Why not let Todd speak for himself about what he values highly these days.
You will on the following link hear Todd speaking on his own website (May 2010) in a 3 minute mp3 audio about a recent gathering he sponsored:
link to page
As you will hear, in addition to many mentions of “the glory”, the main elements he focusses on as important are these, in his own words:
* financial breakthroughs
* increase
* a financial black hole
* financial anointings
* prosperity
* sowing and reaping
* an Angel of Finance
* an encounter with a chequebook called “Access” (I kid you not!)
* the treasures of heaven
* the “International Banker Angel”
* a debt cancellation service – sowing and reaping in the glory
Do you see the strong, consistent emphasis on money in all these “teachings”?
Compare his emphasis and encouragement with the Bible’s emphatic warnings:
* Hebrews Chapter 13 verse 5: “Keep your lives free from the love of money, and be content with what you have, because God has said, “never will I leave you, never will I forsake you.”
* 1 Timothy Chapter 6 verse 10: “For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”
* 2 Timothy Chapter 3: verses 1 to 4: “But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God”.
I cannot therefore recommend this man or his teachings since they encourage believers to go against the teachings of the Bible. By definition, if they go against the teaching of the Bible they must therefore be FALSE TEACHINGS. 2 Peter Chapter 2 warns of false teachers and includes in the warning their character trait of being “experts in greed”.
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What does not make sense to me about “Emma the angel” is that the Bible never once mentions a woman angel. The spirits of witches or one of a prophetess, being raised from the grave and communcated with, but not an angel. And in those cases the act of communicating with such spirits was condemned. Any case recorded in the Bible in which a person was said to have encountered an angel, they were terrified at the sight of them. They were not explained as magical, old woman/young women fairies floating around the room sprinkling gold dust on them. Any prophesy that contradicts, or does not align with Scripture cannot be proven to be anything more than fluff spoken to draw people into a grand following and glorify self. True prophesy or vision will NEVER contradict Scripture. Everythingust be weighed by the only infallable Word- the Bible.
“Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels , taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not using fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.” -Col. 2:18-19
Serena, thank you for your comments. I accept that there is an issue with a woman angel, not an explicitly biblical concept except perhaps for the “woman clothed with the sun” of Revelation 12. But if churches strictly accepted only what is explicit in the Bible, they would have to give up a lot of core beliefs such as the Trinity, and core practices like Sunday sermons in their own buildings. But the Bible does make clear that it does not include a complete description of spiritual reality, see e.g. 2 Corinthians 12:4.
I take your point from Colossians 2:18-19. But I know of only the one place quoted above where Todd Bentley discussed this angel Emma, in tones which are far from worship of her. It is only Todd’s critics who have made a lot out of this.
Apparently Todd Bentley does NOT give glory to Christ for His power BUT glory to Emma the Angel for Her divine power to change peoples lives perhaps being ready for the antichrist.
Paul, do you have any evidence that Todd gives glory to this angel Emma? Do you have any record of words by Todd about Emma other than what I quoted above? Is it giving glory to someone simply to talk about them? Meanwhile there is certainly plenty of evidence, for example among recordings of the Lakeland events, of Todd giving glory to Jesus Christ.
I watched the video and the language was yes and no. The truth is being covered up. I would advise a careful study of the Word of God whenever a spiritual experience occurs and MAKE sure the content of the experience Completely lines up with the Word Of God. Be sure also the message in that experience gives full glory to God alone and keeps you pure.
Paul, by “The truth is being covered up”, do you mean, you can’t find any evidence for what you have simply guessed is true, so you have invented a conspiracy theory? Is this a good Christian way to behave, to create or pass on defamatory rumors about your brother in Christ who is laboring with you for the gospel? I am not defending everything Todd has done, but it is ridiculous, and slanderous, to accuse him on this one.