Dave Warnock links to a very poor quality video of Todd Bentley and claims that
you can actually see him kicking someone in the stomach when that person is suffering from cancer of the colon. I literally could not believe my eyes.
(UPDATE 4th July: in response to this post Dave has edited his post to delete the inaccurate word “kicking”, see also the first comment below.)
And on this basis Dave writes (his emphasis):
But I can say that my doubts have been removed. … I do believe that Todd Bentley is a false prophet.
Well, Dave, it might help you to believe your eyes if you used them, and to see what is actually happening, not the subtitles which have been added to the video. It’s not easy to see with someone’s head in the way – but perhaps there is a good reason why the video was not taken from the official God TV video stream but from an amateur recording of a screen with heads in the way, making it impossible to be sure exactly what happened. But even with this poor quality it seems very clear that Todd could not possibly be kicking the man with his foot, as both his feet are close to the ground throughout. What Todd later says he has done is that he has kneed the man, and that is what I think I am seeing on the video.
The person who wrote the subtitles claims that later on in the video the man was afraid. If you look at his face at the time, it is clear that the man is smiling, perhaps bemused but genuinely smiling. Although he is in some pain, he has got up from a crouching position within a few seconds and has clearly not been seriously hurt.
Now I accept that there are questions about whether kneeing someone in the stomach is a proper thing to do in such circumstances. But it is certainly a much less serious matter than kicking them. And I would expect a Christian minister to check his facts before declaring another Christian minister “a false prophet”. After all, telling lies in the Lord’s name is one of the real biblical marks of a false prophet.
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Matthew 7:2 (TNIV)
Peter,
I have responded to your comment on my blog and immediately updated my post to correct my mistake in writing kick when it should be knee. You are of course correct that it is important to get facts right, I wrote the post when too tired and made a mistake.
However, I think the distinction between a kick and kneeing someone is really rather minor (after all in his own words Todd has described kicking other people to heal them).
I totally agree a better quality video (and without the text overalayed) would be a good thing, I don’t know how to get that – can you advise me?
Are you claiming that the sound track or video are counterfeit?
I maintain that being physically violent in a “Christian” healing service does not follow any example of Jesus, it is not consistent with Christian tradition in scripture (particularly referring to the New Testament) or in orthodox practice over the last 2,000 years.
I hear you asserting that this is all ok and above board but I don’t see any evidence. They know the name of the man (Roger something isn’t it?). So this should be simple. Todd has claimed the man has been healed by this violent act. So produce him with a doctors report that proves he had stage 4 colon cancer before being healed by Todd and does not now.
See it is incredibly easy to prove me wrong. Show me that the healing has taken place and I will change my personal belief about Todd Bentley.
But without proof that people are actually being healed through violence I have not yet seen anything to change my mind that this is inconsistent with both the life & teaching of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit over thousands of years.
Peter, it seems that whatever happens you defend the ministry of TB, is it undergoing ‘death by a 1000 qualifications’? I’m not sure how less serious for example the police would treat a physical assault when they learn he was ‘only kneed in the stomach’ not kicked?
What is it about this that is to you so of God that convinces you that the dangers we see, are to be defended to the hilt so to speak?
Just curious….
This post, under the banner “Gentle Wisdom”, seems to me to be lacking in both. Is it wisdom to argue that there is a significant difference between “kneeing” and “kicking” someone? Are not both an aggressive act of striking?
And is it gentle to say to Mr Warnock “it might help you to believe your eyes if you used them” or to suggest that Mr Warnock is “telling lies” because he did not distinguish between knee/kick in a video that you agree is poor quality?
Dave, thanks for your quick reaction in correcting the error on your blog. It is clear that the deliberate deceiver here is not you but the person who added subtitles to this video claiming that Todd kicked the man. I am not suggesting any counterfeiting in the background video or the soundtrack, only in the subtitles, which seem to me like an example of stirring up religious hatred.
I too would like to see proof that this man or anyone else on whom violent methods were used was actually healed. I too have my reservations about this kind of healing. But I am afraid that at least in my eyes the critics of such things destroy their credibility and so lose their argument when they distort and exaggerate what is actually happening. It is the campaign of lying and vilification against Todd which leads me to defend him. Dave, I am glad that you have distanced yourself from this campaign.
Peter,
A problem is that here I see a significant amount of unquestioning acceptance. By that I mean “This is exciting and it is on God TV so it must be good and right and anyone challenging it can’t believe in the Holy Spirit”.
I guess because of your stance you see a lot of the unquestioning attacks. eg “tattoos = devil, I don’t understand = devil”.
My point is that we are both far closer to the middle (just either side of a dividing line between positive and negative) than many of the commentators.
Thanks, Dave. Yes, we are not far apart but looking towards one another across that dividing line, and sometimes not realising that the ones we see largest and clearest are the ones closest to us across the line.
But I do see the line as a significant one, between those who are prepared to move on where God is taking his church and those who insist on holding on to unhelpful old understandings. I don’t mean to suggest that Todd Bentley in himself is the deciding issue here, rather it is the attitudes like “I don’t understand = devil” which make it impossible for people to move on where God is going. But of course we do need to discern that the one leading us where we are going is indeed God.
By the way I have edited the post to note that Dave has changed his own post in response. I have left Dave’s original text, as he did not completely delete it and because I would otherwise have to delete this whole post as meaningless and so would lose the helpful discussion in the comments.
TC Robinson has linked to this post with this own helpful post. I don’t know why no pingback has arrived, but then WordPress is a bit erratic in this area.
Given that almost all the criticism of Todd I have seen is from people who call themselves Christians, I was interested to see this comment on TC’s post from the Orthodox Jew (I think) Iyov:
The dentist and chiropractor analogies are indeed good ones! But of course it only works if at least a good proportion of those who receive this treatment are genuinely healed.
Peter,
Like you I did not remove the original text from view. My logic was that I don’t want to pretend I did not make a mistake. I don’t want to try to revise history but simply correct mistakes.
I still feel the comparison to chiropractics and dentists is mis-leading. Mine always tell me when it is going to hurt and why they are doing it. If I don’t want the pain I can say no. Both are authenticated by professional bodies and adhere to strict codes of conduct. They treatment is appropriate to my health.
Before having cancer he had back problems and used a Chiropractic who was very effective in restoring mobility and removing pain. Yes the manipulations were for short seconds painful but the effects were amazing.
Towards the end of his life my Dad’s cancer spread to his bones. He was in pain and for a few weeks could barely walk. If I had taken him to a chiropractic then, how do you think he would have been treated?
Anyway we still wait for evidence of healing. How long do we have to wait before the silence in verification is allowed to speak?
It strikes me that the natural human tendency in spiritual matters is akin to inertia. Many have been quick to criticise, condemn or such various moves of God throughout history. We tend to think that God only moves in certain ways, ways approved by the church (that God set up, incidentally). For God to do something new, or different, grates against our natural comfort levels, for we all to quickly grow easy in our ways.
I wonder if we deal with our own failings before God with the same enthusiasm, vigour and energy that we stand ready to pull others down? Were we saved to become authorities within the church, or God’s servants through Jesus Christ? Our churches would surely be full of those seeking Christ (both those having found and those in search of Him) if we dedicated ourselves ever deeper to God.
If God should so choose to use methods unusual to us, so be it. Those seeking the Messiah were the ones who had him put to death, and that according to God’s plan. Because something is new or different does not mean that it is good or bad.
Attention has focussed far more on Lakeland, perhaps, because of its visibility. Yet how many other works of God have passed across the world without so much a footnote in some magazine? Why do we so hotly debate methodology of healing when we disregard Scripture so blatantly in other ways, and hold fast to the points dividing us from our Christian brothers and sisters?
I will neither defend nor condemn Todd et al, for I do not know enough to preside as judge and jury. There are that possibly do and can. There is plenty of work for God to do in my own life and the lives of those where I live to keep me occupied my whole life.
Dave, I agree that people being healed in this way should be asked for permission first. Perhaps they are. I would think that in litigious America it would be very wise to ask people to sign some kind of disclaimer before being allowed on to Todd’s stage. And since the stage is carefully guarded by his minders I would not be surprised if this is happening, or at least if people are warned of the kind of thing that might happen and asked verbally to consent to it.
I agree that we need more evidence of healing from Todd. But then if he publishes anything people are going to claim he has distorted it or is giving only one side of the story. I am sure he has learned by now, as I have, that there is no way to satisfy the people who have started a religious crusade to tear him down and silence him (I don’t mean you, Dave), the best thing is to ignore them.
Oh, he only kneed the guy with Cancer in the stomach! I don’t what all of the fuss was about then. 😕
Incidentally, I have a similar frame to Todd Bentely and – even though I’ve been practicing martial arts for around 16 years – I can cause far more damage with a knee to the stomach than a kick. Maybe that’s not universal however.
Peter, I’m curious – and this is a genuine question – what would Bentley have to do/say for you to stop supporting him?
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Peter Kirk: Regarding yr comments that there could be 2 possibilities:-
(a) Todd Bentley is a real healer. If this is the case, then a short painful act in the course of healing is entirely appropriate (this happens all the time when I go to the dentist!)
(b) Todd Bentley is a fraud, but that his efforts work nonetheless because of the power of suggestion. If this is the case, and the man receives real relief as a result of the act, then this is also good. Todd Bentley is acting no more cruel than one a typical chiropractor does. One needs to remember — real relief from placebo is still real relief.
On a), Todd Bentley is and can never be a real healer. Jesus is the real healer. So pls don’t go equating Todd Bentley with Jesus.
On b), if Todd Bentley is a fraud, he is doing a far greater damage than just hurting the man physically. He is deceiving christians to think that whatever he’s doing comes straight from God and this will never equate to real relief.
pls stop all this idolatry, ie. worshipping Todd Bentley as if he was the next best thing after Jesus.
I also annotated my post. You may justly regard me as worse than others, because I did notice that it was the knee, but didn’t (and don’t) see any substantive difference.
The issue I take is that I simply regard this particular action as wrong, along with those that are similar. I still do not regard myself as in a position to pass judgment on the entire ministry.
Charismatic, the words you quote are from the Jew Iyov and not from me. Of course the “real” healer is Jesus, and I interpret Iyov’s words as meaning “Todd Bentley is a real minister of God’s healing”.
I do not “worship[] Todd Bentley as if he was the next best thing after Jesus.” I have pointed out on this blog several ways in which his ministry is imperfect and questions I have about it.
Henry, thanks for annotating your post. I am not taking you to task because your attitude has consistently been the proper one of remaining uncommitted. But I cannot agree with you that this action is in itself morally wrong regardless of the context. I might say that about killing someone, in which case I would have to be a consistent pacifist (and I respect Dave Warnock for being one). But if this action is not inherently morally wrong for a doctor, then its moral status depends on the context – the very context which has been carefully snipped out of the old video which is so often quoted when discussing this.
Peter, should we only understand what Todd Bentley is doing as mere coincidences or genuine miracles? There must be more to what he’s been doing, whether he’s just a showman or a man sent from God.
Is this what is meant by ‘body ministry’….?
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As I have commented on another blog;
“I have heard good and bad things about Todd Bentley and the outbreak of (maybe) Gods work at Lakeland, but as I am unable to afford a trip there personally I will reserve judgement for the moment.
The one thing that does trouble me is that these things happen in Lakeland and many people ‘rave’ about it (I refer to the healings etc) and yet there are many faithful servants of God working away in places like India who pray for people and they are healed. (without physically attacking them)) Even raised from the dead.
Their village or local community are well aware of their health problems and the healings produce much fruit for Gods Kingdom and yet no one suggests going to visit these poor, itinerant servants of the almighty to obtain an ‘impartation’ from them.
Why not?? Think about it.”
OK, just for fun, here’s another Todd Bentley Kneeing a guy during ministry. And its a God TV feed, if that makes any difference. Posted by the guy who git kneede, if that makes any difference. I guess he liked it.
You may fast forward to 4:00 if you are in a hurry.
I understand, from someone who once worked with Bentley, that the gun-fighter knee-slap thing that Bentley does (at 4:13) is not uncommon.
Wowsers.
Peter, I am struggling to see why you attempt to defend this man.
Surely there are only three option, either
1. Todd Bentley does not use violence at all on people wanting healing
2. Todd Bentley talks about violence but doesn’t actually do it
3. Todd Bentley talks but does not enact violence on people wanting healing.
Regarding 1), this is a link to Bentley’s fresh fire ministries.
I quote:
I’d invite you to look at other examples on this website.
So, it seems to me, that we have unarguable proof that Todd Bentley claims to use extreme violence on people asking for healing, thus we must exclude option 1.
Therefore we are left with two further options:
1. Todd Bentley claims to use violence on people wanting healing but does not. His is therefore a liar, and disqualified from being a minister of God because he is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (ie claiming God the Holy Spirit told him to do something which in practice he made up).
or
2. Todd Bentley claims to use violence on people wanting healing and actually uses violence on people.
I’d actually agree with you that there is little evidence to back up Todd Bentley’s own claims of violence, but there are some. To be 100% sure, I would have to watch a lot of GOD TV which is a torture I would not wish on anyone.
Anyway, having shown that there are only two rational options, your position must be to support Todd’s claims to actually enact violence on people, Peter. Hence it is rather shallow and pointless to debate punches, kicks or knees to the groin.
As an aside, were you to knee me in the region of my waist, you may well get a strained smile. I don’t see this as any proof of anything.
Sorry, I forgot to put in the end italics tag. Apologies.
Glenn,
Thanks for that reference. Lakeland gets all the media attention and the rest of the world gets ignored. Weeks (and now months) of events get the attention (and blog-discussions about them… lol), while the living martyrdom of true saints we would be truly honoured to spend time with, the ordinary, unspectacular, run-of-the-mill people, living sacrifices who have precious little time to discuss grand theology because their lives are caught up with Christ.
Healings are one and only one part of the Gospel ministry. Spurgeon talked about the healing of wound and disease, the wound being the visible (be it physical or even mental) and disease being those parts of our lives still being transformed by the Spirit. I would give my good ear to be truly healed.
Apparently, in the eyes of Charismatic leaders, God is using Todd Bentley because He (God) needs to shock us by using someone of his background. (The exact quote escapes me at the moment). I really don’t understand much about the “biker culture” but I’m guessing it has little to do with meekness and kindness.
And so we are presented with a “minister of the gospel” that either is violent or mimes violence; in other words he glorifies violence.
The concern about the violence is not limited to the church. I was recently contacted by a researcher working for a major civil rights organization in the U.S. – they are concerned about the violent tendancies of what they consider to be a cult.
Most alarming is the recent trend to equate the Holy Ghost anointing “substance” with bullets. In the infamous “Heather Clark Warfare Dance” Bentley’s worship leader for the evening is seen dancing at at one point she mimes shooting a handgun at the audience.
Ron Deluca, who has boasted on his website that He propehsied the “Florida Outpouring” was spotted at a meeting a week or so after the Heather Clark dance shooting an imaginary handgun at the audience; this time the audience “got it” and would fall under the “anointing” as the imaginary bullets hit them. At least the ones who were looking at Deluca- those who were not looking at Deluca felt no effect when hit by imaginary bullets.
That many in the church today find this acceptable troubles me.
Link
Warfare Dance timestamp 3:00
TC, I don’t say that all that Todd is doing can be explained as coincidences. He certainly claims that there have been creative miracles through his ministry. But this may be the best explanation of a lot of it.
Glenn, sadly it is a lot more difficult to visit those running large healing ministries in India etc, and they are not on global TV probably because they wouldn’t want to be – not because they are more humble but because they don’t want to stir up opposition. Yet I agree their ministry is probably just as valid and powerful as Todd’s.
Joe, that’s an interesting example, but note that Todd’s boot did not connect with the lady’s face. So he did not actually use violence. Has he ever claimed to do so, or was this the same incident mentioned in the carefully edited video? It reminds me of Abraham nearly but not quite sacrificing Isaac. Was it wrong of Abraham to do what he did? Only if that was wrong was what Todd did wrong.
Bill, I too have seen this miming of shooting people with the anointing. I can see why you are worried, but it is of course only a mime, no real violence!
>I can see why you are worried, but it is of course only a mime, no real violence!
Peter,
You have two choices- either the violence during bentley’s ministry time is just play-acting, or it is indeed violent.
If you choose play-acting, them Benetley is a liar.
Time stamp 2:00 – knocks a tooth out
If you believe Bentley, then you must admit that this man, who has “repented” of his violnet past, continues to be violent.
Let us know what your choice is so we can discuss this in a rational manner.
-Bill
Bill, repeat your comment without inverted commas round “repented”, in other words stop calling Todd a liar for saying that he is a Christian, and I will be prepared to discuss this in a rational manner.
Nothing new to me in that carefully edited video. We don’t have the full context about the tooth coming out. Without that I cannot discuss it rationally.
>I can see why you are worried, but it is of course only a mime, no real violence!
Peter,
You have two choices- either the violence during bentley’s ministry time is just play-acting, or it is indeed violent.
If you choose play-acting, then Bentley is a liar. Because he says it is not.
Time stamp 2:00 – knocks a tooth out
As to the context of this video, Bentley stated “I hit this guy so hard, it drove him back several feet, he hit the ground, and his tooth popped right out of his mouth.” Of another assault, he stated “I grabbed him by the neck and started choking him.” Bentley’s words, not mine.
If you believe Bentley, then you must admit that this man, who has says he has repented of his violent past, continues to be violent.
Let us know what your choice is so we can discuss this in a rational manner.
As to the edited video – when presented with unedited video you say you don’t have time. If its edited, somehow it is not credible. What’s up with that?
-Bill
Not good enough, Bill. Accept that Todd has repented and I will answer you. I take your point about the edited video, but I genuinely didn’t have time to watch a half hour programme of which only a small part was relevant.
I’ll accept that Todd repented of his involvement in a sex-crime ring in which he perpetrated a violent sexual assault on a 7 year old boy.
I’m also not questioning his conversion. It’s a pretty dramatic testimony.
I don’t think he has left the punching/kicking/choking biker culture behind. A culture of violence.
In the pentecostal tradition we define repentance as turning away from sin. It that sense, he seems to be proudly hanging on to this biker stuff.
This is pertinent to the discussion because you have stated “Todd Bentley does NOT kick a man”
Can you safely says that he has not kicked ANY man?
-Bill
Repentance.
A tricky matter, one at the core of the Gospel and one so overlooked in Christian teaching. While it is (of course) necessary to move from ‘milk’ to ‘meat’ in terms of our understanding, we cannot leave behind the essentials, for they form the rest of the whole.
So it is with repentance. What we are before God remains the same – sinners saved by grace. We don’t turn away from sin once, but every day, resisting temptation and seeking forgiveness for our shortcomings, but being changed by the work of the Spirit and healed of our disposition towards rebellion against God.
This takes time and perseverance. No quick fixes. And sin is a stubborn thing, struggling to come back to life at every opportunity. By God’s grace and the conviction of the Holy Spirit we are helped to steer clear of old habits and weaknesses, rebuked if we fall and disciplined by a loving God who gives us every opportunity to come back to him.
Past repentance is great, but then our lives are to be spent growing in the fruit of the Spirit such that the old patterns of behaviour are no longer part of us, and wherever they do try to return, are quickly uprooted and dealt with before they do any damage.
“Let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us…” Heb 12:1b – keep reading as well….
We are human and therefore remain incapable of dealing with sin, even after coming to salvation. It is always the gracious work of God. If we think we’ve ‘sorted it’, think again. That applies to Christian leaders, authorities and each of us too.
Bill, thanks for accepting that Todd has been truly converted to Christ.
Unlike you I am really glad that he has not left his biker culture behind. The gospel is not about leaving one’s culture but about living a holy life within that culture. When there is a lot of violence within that culture it is of course hard to know exactly where the boundaries of holiness are. But if the violence is more play than nastiness I don’t see it as necessarily sinful.
It may be that at some time in his life Todd has kicked a man. I don’t know. I am only saying that on this particular occasion he did not.
Jamie, thanks for your helpful thoughts on repentance. But the issue in this case is that Bill and I differ over exactly what counts as sin to be repented of.
Peter, there are many claims by Todd Bentley on his website of his miraculous violence. I suggest you go and read them.
I can see nothing in this quote which suggests that his boot did not connect with the woman’s face. Where did you get that from?
Joe, the words in question are
I read that as saying that she fell over as the boot approached her, not that contact was made. A sceptic might well say that she fainted in fright at seeing the boot coming towards her. But there is no indication of actual contact in this account.
I accept that there is elsewhere on the Internet an account, on a video, of the same or a similar incident in which apparently there was actual contact. But that is the video which I do not trust because of the obvious careful editing to remove the proper context and disclaimers.
OK, listen. Here are some quotes from the same page I linked to before. This is Todd Bentley’s own words on his own website.
Again, Peter, I would suggest you go and read the Fresh Fire Ministries website before trying to suggest that Todd Bentley does not actually [believe that he] connects with his victims.
Joe, let me answer these cases one by one:
Knife-wielding crazy man: in this case violence was clearly justified as self-defence.
Man dying of enlarged heart: doctors hit the hearts of people who are dying of heart failure, so is it necessary wrong for Todd to do the same? It was certainly justified if he did in fact survive, which doesn’t seem to have been confirmed.
Man with missing lung: he was healed, so obviously God didn’t think it was a problem.
Leg-dropped pastor: do you know what this means? Some people have interpreted this as “drop-kick”, but it doesn’t mean that at all. It is apparently a wrestling move:
I suppose this can be painful, but in this case it was not. Not exactly violence, I would say, more a case of showmanship.
Crippled girl: do you know better than Todd what God told him? She was healed, and so were many others. Anyway we have no real indication of how hard he banged these paralysed legs, which presumably could not feel pain.
My point about Todd not connecting with his victims was about only that one case of the old woman he was said to have kicked. I have still seen no evidence of Todd actually kicking anyone with his foot, or causing anyone serious pain.
I give up.
Joe, when people are blindly loyal to someone, they will be in denial and try to reason out everything and provide excuses for everything that the person does, however wrong or ridiculous it may seem. I would say it’s as close to idol-worshipping as it can get or maybe as close to how a group of cult followers can believe everything their cult leader tells them.
“Glenn, sadly it is a lot more difficult to visit those running large healing ministries in India etc”
No it isn’t. A plane ride is a plane ride. I made no reference to “large healing Ministries” and as such I have no idea where you got this erroneous information. I was in fact referring to normal Christians serving God (without violence and unnecessary sensationalism)
“, and they are not on global TV probably because they wouldn’t want to be – not because they are more humble but because they don’t want to stir up opposition.”
Your attitude speaks for itself. They are much more humble and they would avoid global TV because of that humbleness.
“Yet I agree their ministry is probably just as valid and powerful as Todd’s.”
Probably!! I would have said that it is at least as valid and powerful and in fact more valid and powerful because of the spirit in which they humbly serve without fanfare.
Glenn, a plane ride to India costs more than one to Florida, and you need to get a visa and injections first, at the very least. Yes, maybe these people are genuinely humble and self-effacing, perhaps more so than they need to be, and for that reason few people hear about them and visit them. Anyway, these local healers would probably be highly embarrassed to have westerners visiting them regularly, and their ministries would probably be spoiled by it.
Roger, the man who features in the video I discuss here, has commented on TC Robinson’s blog. He writes, in part:
Yet Todd Bentley is not embarrassed nor, according to you, is his ministry spoiled by the being on ‘GOD TV’.
Oookay then.
Thanks for the link, Peter. I plan to email Mr. Roger to learn more about what transpired that evening.
Joe, please don’t put words in my mouth. These Indian local ministers and Todd have made different choices concerning publicity, but both are valid and as far as I can judge correct concerning the audiences which they are seeking to reach, in the one case Indian villagers and in the other western TV watchers. Both groups need Christ, and I praise the Lord that both groups are being reached.
TC, I too contacted Roger by e-mail.
Peter,
What do you think about this? It makes whether or not he actually kicked a man during that service above look like it’s a rather insignificant question.
http://pineapplepundit.blogspot.com/2008/07/todd-bentley-violent-healer.html
Woah. This is so freaky.
As you know, Peter, I’m *all* for the gifts being for today. All for it. But in researching this current movement (as I have friends involved in it), I’m coming away with a lot more fear than I am faith.
Molly, What do you mean by “a lot more fear than faith”?
Molly, I just watched that youtube video you posted. That is downright eerie and doesn’t look like the work of the Holy Spirit. After watching it, it has given me a spooky feeling as that isn’t from God.
Peter and everyone else, I’ve received a lengthy reply from Mr. Roger, after posing a few questions of my own. I plan to reflect on the reply on my blog, but of course, with his permission.
TC,
I meant that it’s not causing me to get excited about what’s going on in Lakeland but is causing me to get more and more alarmed.
Btw, I’m a member of the Peter Kirk fan club, so I mean non of the above in any sort of anti-Peter way. I think his gentle wisdom ROCKS! 🙂
Molly, thanks for being my fan!
The first of the two videos you linked to is the same carefully edited one I have commented on several times before, with added tendentious titles. Because of the editing we cannot know the full context. Many of the incidents related here are the same as the ones discussed and explained in the thread above. The most violent assault described is probably the one in self-defence, with that part edited out. I cannot comment on the man whose tooth came out beyond saying that there seems to have been a prior mention of the tooth which might explain the situation.
What’s your problem with the second video? The woman shaking her head? Can’t you see beyond this admittedly strange outward appearance? Did you listen to what she said?
He was covered in a recent Nightline Program – no doubt it will be on the web somewhere, but this is the story based on a transcript of the program:
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaithMatters/Story?id=5338963&page=4
Thank you, Chris. It is sad that doctors’ names were blacked out, but presumably the doctors requested that as I’m sure they don’t want to be put on the spot by journalists, some of whom would tear them apart whatever they said. Or there may be other confidentiality issues. With so much litigiousness in the US medical profession both the doctors and Todd have to be careful. It is surely no coincidence that in the one case for which details were given the doctors involved are outside the USA.
Chris, see also this post concerning the ABC Nightline programme.
I’ve been granted permission by Mr. Roger, the man in the video, to post our email exchanges.
Thanks, TC. For the benefit of my other readers, the first part of this is here. This much at least convinces me that the guy really was sick before he met Todd. I await the rest of it, which should be even more interesting.
I have been confused many times in how God choses to fulfil His plan. however it is easy to accuse when we havn’t understood how He opperates. If i was to spit in someones eye i would be arrested for assault. if the person i spat at was blind and now can see would he / she have a problem?
Thanks, Ken. My feeling is indeed that most of those who criticise Todd and others like him don’t understand how God operates in healing. They make assumptions that he must be as gentle as a modern nurse. But his ways are not our ways. Also I have never heard of any complaints about Todd’s violence from the “victims”, only comments that it didn’t actually hurt and testimonies of at least partial healing as a result.
Peter,
“My feeling is indeed that most of those who criticise Todd and others like him don’t understand how God operates in healing. They make assumptions that he must be as gentle as a modern nurse.”
To understand how God works in healing let us consider his revelations to us a) Jesus b) Scripture. Neither support a healing ministry that works through violence.
“But his ways are not our ways.”
Absolutely, but his ways have been fully revealed to us through his son Jesus. Nobody has demonstrated that Jesus used violence.
Ken’s example of spit is very different and needs to be understood within a culture where saliva was understood to provide healing.
Dave, if the critics were all like you in accepting that Jesus’ example is a valid criterion, that copying that example is a valid thing for a Christian to do, then 90% of the criticism would be deflected. But many don’t accept this.
What I don’t accept is that God’s ways have been fully revealed to us through Jesus. There is a lot more to the depths of God’s character than could be revealed in one human life. Jesus himself said that his disciples would do greater things than he did (John 14:12). If you meant to say that the principles on which God works have been fully revealed through Jesus, I can accept that, but not that every detail has been fully revealed.
I accept that even my criterion can be used against violence in healing. But I don’t accept that what Todd is doing is real violence. It is show violence, designed to create an impression but deliberately not to hurt. Todd learned wrestling, and this is what wrestling is all about. I repeat that I have not heard any complaints from supposed victims, only from people who have seen poor quality Youtube pictures, or heard Todd’s boasts without their full context.
Really what it comes down to is that you don’t like Todd’s style, with its apparent glorification of violence. I don’t like this aspect of it. But we need to separate matters of style and substance, especially when as here there is so much good in the substance. I may not like your Methodist style and you may not like my Anglican style (to oversimplify the possible differences between us), but we can agree that both of our churches have valid ministries. Can’t we extend the same principle to include Todd Bentley?
Peter,
“What I don’t accept is that God’s ways have been fully revealed to us through Jesus. There is a lot more to the depths of God’s character than could be revealed in one human life.”
I submit there is truth in both our statements. It is part of the mystery of Jesus being fully human and fully divine.
“It is show violence, designed to create an impression but deliberately not to hurt.”
If that is what it is then I do not see any place for that in the Kingdom of God, I do not support it as a valid expression of God’s love and active work in bringing healing and wholeness. Instead it appears to glorify so much of what the kingdom should stand against in society.
“But we need to separate matters of style and substance”
a) I am sure you remember that when I looked at the substance of the teaching the published documents from Todd demonstrated prosperity gospel teaching.
b) Violence is not style IMHO it is substance. What teaching of the kingdom comes from a glorification of violence and a pretence that violence can bring healing and wholeness. I mean what lesson could be worse to present to the world than to pretend that God works in violent ways to bring healing – just what the world needs is people thinking they should go and beat people up to show them the love of God.
“especially when as here there is so much good in the substance.”
Forgive me, but where is this good substance? Nightline could not verify a single healing. There has as yet been no verification of the Roger story despite the interviews (confirmation of identity and doctors reports would be two good things).
So I still see a ministry with problematical theology, problematical techniques (for want of a better word) and no verification of claims. I am open to be changed but there is nothing to change me yet.
Dave, thanks for your comment. I don’t remember seeing any evidence that Todd is any more into prosperity teaching than 90% of American pastors. Real violence is a matter of substance, but show violence is a matter of style. It is not a style I appreciate to the extent that it glorifies violence, but I really don’t think anyone takes show wrestling seriously as that. I could say that God endorses wrestling by doing so himself, causing pain and disability, in Genesis 32:24. As for your continuing scepticism about even the Roger story, surely you are demonstrating the attitude Jesus predicted in Luke 16:31.
I will stand against prosperity teaching wherever I hear it, it is quite clearly a different gospel to the ones in my Bible.
Your use of Luke 16:31 seems very inappropriate.
Dave, I accept that there is no independent verification of the Roger story. But it would really be quite incredible as a fabrication. It is detailed and accompanied by a photo with a child. If Todd supporters had fabricated it, they would surely have had Roger completely healed or at least giving an unambiguous testimony of partial healing. If Todd opponents had fabricated it, they would not have included even partial healing, and they surely would not have held back, as Roger does, from criticising Todd. It has all the marks of a true story. Yet you continue to be sceptical about it. I can see only two explanations for this: either your worldview does not allow for even the possibility of partial healing in response to prayer; or else you are so negative towards Todd that you cannot accept that anything good can happen as a result of his ministry.
I note that it is quite possible, and indeed orthodox in terms of the rejection of Donatism, to accept that God can use Todd in healing ministry even if Todd’s teaching and methods are seriously wrong. I agree with you in rejecting prosperity teaching, although we might disagree on exactly what we accept. I also agree that Todd’s glorification of violence is unhelpful. But I do not accept that either of these things imply that God is unable to heal Roger and others through Todd’s ministry.
This is a bit late, but you really shouldn’t compare a dentist and a chiropractor. A dentist is a real doctor. Try Wikipedia to find out what a chiropractor is.
I’m astonished that Bill Fawcett would want to propagate details of Todd’s pre-Christian activities. I have honestly never met a Christian over my last 40 years of faith who would do such a thing. If God keeps no record of wrongs, where did Bill get his record from? If God expunges a man’s record, far be it from me to usurp God’s authority as judge and reinstate it.
Regarding violence in ministry: the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth was precisely minuted (Roberts Liardon is the expert) and there were times when he punched people (who were known to the congregation) hard in the body and tumours visibly dropped off their bodies in full-view of everyone. One time he knocked an old woman off the platform and everyone thought she was dead and accused him of murder. Wigglesworth faltly said “she’s healed” and when she awoke she was completely healed of a life-threatening condition. Wigglesworth was no hypocrite – when he was ill himself, he asked his son-in-law to punch him in the kidneys but the blow was too gentle. Wigglesworth rebuked him and said that a wholehearted punch was needed. A full-strength punch indeed did the trick. I suspect that it’s something to do with that in the soul of man that would hold back from 101% committed faith. We fear being seen as violent and maybe God has to get us beyond that fear into unquestioning trust and obedience before our faith can rout the enemy.
MrFun, note that in the original mention of dentists and chiropractors (comment 47673) the former were mentioned genuine healers and the latter as examples of frauds.
Duncan, thanks for making this important point about forgiveness, and telling us about Smith Wigglesworth.
I have spent at least 40 hours looking at Todd Bentley Utubes and reading material he’s written. Within that research I have heard him desribe or seen him do the following acts, in addition to the above: charging like a rhinocerous and “clothes lining” a person, “just about taking their head right off”, in his words, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWmPZRVMIek&feature=related) “mounting” a person, body slamming a person, baptising a person in the name of the Father, Son, and BAM!, baptising a person in water for “the fire,” claiming that he has seen the apostle Paul, claiming that has seen an angel 30 times in one year, saying Jesus told him he needs to talk about angels because “They need to believe in THE ANGEL” (an exact quote). In a recent video I didn’t finish watching, he was with Bob Jones and they were going to make a quick trip to the 3rd heaven that evidently everyone can take. He tells a story of an old woman whom he slaps in the face because God told him to do so. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NRBneHze7M) You will note that he changes his story about 1/4 of the way through it. His ministry assistants, in 2 videos I’ve seen: 1 where he pushes a woman over (this is blatant) after he’s prayed and she isn’t healed. In the other, his ministry assistant perpetually and with force, kicks a woman’s feet while she is lying on the floor.
Whatever Smith Wigglesworth ‘did or didn’t do’ is a non-issue. All must line up with the character and teachings of Jesus Christ, or we will all be waves of the sea driven by any wind of doctrine or “phenomena” that comes along.
In the Old and New Testaments, we see the Lord as a Shepherd who gently leads the sheep. Ezekiel 34:16 “I will search for my lost ones who strayed away, and I will bring them safely home again. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak.” He tends gently to those who are hurting, and gives strength to the weak. In Ezekiel 34, God rebukes the “shepherds” of Israel, the spiritual leaders for their lack of compassion and for treating the sheep with force and cruelty. 4 “You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the broken bones. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with force and cruelty.”
FORCE AND CRUELTY.
In II Cor. 11 Paul talks about the “Super Apostles” that were holding sway over the church at Corinth. He says (4) “You seem to believe whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach about a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.(20) You put up with it when they make you their slaves, take everything you have, take advantage of you, put on airs, and slap you in the face.” NLT
Our culture is embracing as entertainment, programs where people FIND PLEASURE IN OTHERS BEING HURT. This spirit is not the Holy Spirit, not in church or out of it. To see people laughing about an elderly woman being slapped in the face was shocking. Are we numb to the atrocity of it?
The media has sold us a lie. It is humiliating to be slapped in the face. And if a man wanted to “mount” another man in any other setting, what would you think???
Anyone can say Jesus, God, the Holy Spirit. Manifestations an even healings can be staged and can come from sources other than the Lord Jesus Christ. Remember the magicians in Egypt turned rods into serpents, turned water into blood, and caused frogs to appear on the land. In the NT there was a sorcerer who “astonished the people with his magic arts.” (Acts 8) The anti-Christ will perform great signs and even call down fire from heaven. (Rev. 13:13) And he will be “healed” from a fatal wound and come back to life after 3 days. “…False Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.” (Mk 13:22)
The True Shepherd (Jesus Christ) shows us His way…a path of peace, causing people to be at rest and to know SAFETY… gently leading those with young, leading us beside still waters, restoring our souls, comforting us, removing our fears. He is gentle and humble in heart, easy to be entreated. He’s not a cattle driver, He doesn’t do things in a jerky, forceful movement, so as to frighten the sheep. He took upon Himself the form of a servant, layed down His life for the sheep, wept over His wayward chosen people, responded with compassion to heal the sick, wept and suffered for the sufferings of others, and TOOK CRUSHING and BRUTAL BEATINGS UPON HIMSELF FOR OUR HEALING. He, Isaiah says, was marred more than any man. He took abuse FOR US.
We are admonished to love one another, to respect all people, to treat one another with purity, to be self-controlled, having lives that cannot be condemned by the world. It is “another gospel” if a spiritual leader tells you that they need to use force and cruelty in any way, for whatever the reason. And if they say “God” is telling them to do it, start questioning which god they’re referring to.
Umom2, who was hurt? Do you have any evidence of anyone claiming to have been injured by anything Todd and his associates have done to them? As for your claims that Todd “mounted” anyone, rather than performed wrestling manoeuvres, you need to wash our your mouth and your mind from such a filthy imagination.
Peter, do you believe Jesus is who He said He is?
Yes, Umom2. What is the relevance of this question?
Then, Peter, we agree. Jesus was gentle. (Mt. 11:29) Gentle Wisdom. What beautiful adornment for a website. And what beautiful adornment for all Christians. Power under control, not power that exerts control. That is meekness and gentleness. Antonyms for gentle are: 1. harsh, cruel. 2. violent, sudden. 7. wild, unruly.
“Praotes” (gentleness) is closely related to humility. It is not weakness or
spinelessness, but rather the willingness to suffer injury instead of inflicting it.
This gentleness can only be
produced by the Holy Spirit (cf. Gal. 5: 22 – 23) and should mark the Christian
behavior at all times…”*
Gentleness is the willingness to suffer injury rather than inflict it.
Jesus is the exact representation of God, and reveals through His words and behavior what Love looks like. The greatest commandments were that we love God and then one another, as ourselves. Love is patient and kind. This is the character of Christ.
RE: “mounted”
My usage of that word was taken from Utube footage. Our brother said he mounted a man and then choked him. Is there any possible way you could classify that as gentle? Kind?
The issue is not whether a person was taken to the hospital for emergency care or whether they needed medical assistance. The issue is that he says “God told him” or “the Lord told him” or “Jesus told him” to hit, kick, etc… people. Is the Jesus being preached and exemplified by behavior the SAME Jesus we find in the gospels? Paul said that there is “another Jesus,” “another spirit,” and “another gospel.”
*John MacArthur Jr., The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: Colossians & Philemon (Chicago, IL:
Moody Press, 1992) page 156.
Indeed, Umom2. Todd Bentley would agree. He does not inflict injury.
Are you claiming that Todd Bentley used the word “mounted” of what he did? I’m sure he didn’t mean this in the sexually nuanced way which you implied. Maybe it is a wrestling term. Similarly with “choked” as it is clear that he did not actually cause injury. Perhaps you should redirect your campaign against professional wrestlers, who apparently inflict much more injury than Todd ever does, but without really hurting one another.
Dear Peter,
Yes. Todd used the word “mounted” and then illustrated it in the way a person would mount a horse. He followed it up by saying that then he started choking the man. Here is the Utube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAgLVFx_yh8&feature=related
The issue at hand is whether these things fit into the category of loving, gentle or kind. Can you, with an open and honest heart, consider them such? Would you allow your child to treat other children in that way? And justify their behavior for doing so?
And concerning the “mounting” I did not make any sexual reference. A question was posed to spur thinking. Framing a situation outside of what others are saying is acceptable can help to see if it would be considered “right” apart from its present context. That was my point.
You may be correct, this is has to do with wrestling. It should be noted, however, that the setting in which this took place was not a wrestling ring, but an auditorium, where a man of God who professes he is an evangelist, is saying “God TOLD him” to do these various violent maneuvers on people whom he has not ASKED their permission to do such things. Within the context of a wrestling match, the opponent knows what he’s in for. A person attending a Christian conference or revival would not come thinking they’re going to be kicked or kneed or mounted. Even a doctor will say “I’m going to do such and so, and it’s going to hurt” and he will give them a CHOICE about whether or not they want it done. When put before a crowd of people, most will not say anything that would bring embarrassment. They will agree and smile because if they are humiliated or hurt, they aren’t going to show it publicly. That’s the power of having 1,000 people looking at you.
I am not campaigning against anyone. 🙂
I have great mercy and compassion for Todd, because he was placed as a novice into ministry way too soon. As happens with a lot of people who come from a sensational past, he was pushed forward because it draws the attention of people. He was no where near mature when he started into ministry. He had a violent past and needed and still needs a lot of healing and deliverance, as evidenced by open displays of pushing, shoving, kicking, kneeing, choking, body slamming, and banging people’s body parts. He is doing it and he is teaching it to others.
May the Lord have mercy.
UMom2, thanks for the clarification. Yes, mounting the man like a human mounts a horse, not mounting for sexual purposes as I misunderstood you to be referring to. This is a standard wrestling move, I think. Would you allow your children to learn wrestling, or oriental martial arts which similarly involve simulated violence?
The context as carefully edited in this video does not tell us anything about where this happened. If you research this particular incident more thoroughly, instead of relying on this video, I think you will find that this particular man had just threatened Todd with a knife, and so Todd’s actions are reasonable self-defence. See this article by Todd referred to in comment 49926 above; I think this is the incident in Ethiopia told there. Indeed we don’t know the full story about any of these events, we don’t know things like whether the people have been asked in advance to consent to what Todd did.
Hi again Peter.
Todd was on the same platform, telling different stories of how “God healed” and delivered people.
When we get together to hear someone preach, it is to be expected that we’re going to be mounted, pinned, and enter into a wrestling match?
He is boasting about his “victories.” These all came through physical force. Can you see where this is false?
Yes, Todd was telling the stories on a platform, but that does not imply that the stories were about what took place on a platform. And it is clear that the video was edited to show only what was considered controversial, and to delete at least one significant piece of information that one of the “victims” was attacking Todd with a knife. We need more context, some of which may be provided by the article by Todd which I linked to.
Peter, with all due respect, you are dodging the question of fruit. Are these things in keeping with the character of Christ: gentleness, kindness… ? Can you, with an open and honest heart see someone claiming “God told them” to kick, slam, “be like a rhinocerous” and charge into a person, “BAM” the people instead of praying in the Name of Jesus Christ (for healing), “clothes line” someone, knee them in the stomach? And those are only ones I’ve seen, not mentioning them all.
Secondly, this was not one incident. There are numerous incidents. Numerous. And people in his ministry are also seen kicking (this was on one video where a woman was lying on the floor and the “helper” was kicking the soles of her feet).
Are you greatly entertained by Todd?
UMom2, I am not dodging the question of fruit because you have not asked any such question. Yes, these things are consistent with a Christian character. There are not numerous such incidents, the only ones I have heard reported are various accounts of these four or five. How much do you actually know about the character Todd generally displays at his meetings? Have you actually watched any of them, or just a few carefully edited Youtube clips with tendentious commentaries?