A visit to the Dudley outpouring

In the most recent of my series of posts on the revival in Lakeland, Florida led by Todd Bentley, I referred to similar things happening in Dudley, England. My vicar and his wife, and a couple of others from my church, are planning to visit Lakeland on Tuesday for a week or so. As I am unable to join them but didn’t want to miss out on anything God is doing in the area of revival, I decided to check out what was happening in Dudley. At first, on Friday, I was thinking of going next weekend, but I felt God saying to me “Why not tomorrow?” I asked my vicar, and he said “Go, get as much blessing as you can, and bring it back!” So yesterday, Saturday, I went. And it proved to be a good day to go.

What is happening in Dudley, just west of Birmingham, is being called the Dudley Outpouring. It is being organised by Revival Fires, which is a ministry hosting renewal and revival conferences and also a local church. Trevor Baker is their main leader. They have been holding daily meetings for more than 20 days, since Trevor came home from his first visit to Lakeland. They have their own blog about the outpouring, mostly of testimonies, although this has not been updated for several days. Last week Trevor visited Lakeland again, and, as can be seen in this YouTube clip, was commissioned by Todd Bentley to bring the Lakeland revival to Britain, to be our very own British TB. And he arrived back in England yesterday morning, so the meeting I went to was the first after his return.

Dudley is nearly 200 miles from my home in Chelmsford, and the journey can be a nightmare. But as usual the roads were very clear on a Saturday and the journey took me only 2½ hours each way. The meetings were being held, just for the weekend, in a converted cinema, in fact a rather run down venue in a run down area, but at a strategic location at the very summit of this hilltop town – even slightly higher than the parish church opposite. The venue seats about 800 in the main hall and 600 in the overflow, and both were full last night. I joined the queue nearly two hours before the meeting was due to begin at 7.30, and got into the main hall about half way back.

I must say that I was not entirely impressed by the meeting, which was long, hot and noisy. The first hour and a half was worship, sometimes rather repetitive although not weird, a lot of it of the kind which encourages clapping. 800 people clapping for over an hour in a low ceilinged room left me rather dazed, and it was also rather hot and cramped. I was much more comfortable when they moved on to quieter, more meditative songs, and I was able to worship the Lord in a meaningful way through them.

Then at last Trevor Baker took the stage, and started by giving “words of knowledge” about healing of some quite specific serious infirmities. Those who believed they were being healed were called forward, and quite a lot were invited to give testimonies. This was good, but not what I had gone for. It was probably after 10.00 when Trevor at last got us to take our seats for his main talk. It was also good, but I’m afraid not very memorable, at least for someone as tired as I was by this time, so I won’t try to summarise it.

At the end of this they took up an offering, which was rather protracted but mercifully carefully avoided any prosperity gospel type teaching that people should give so that they get a greater benefit for themselves. Instead the point of the offering was clearly stated as to benefit others, to build up a “war chest” for future outpouring events. Specifically, they are hoping to hire the NEC in Birmingham for Todd Bentley who has announced his intention to visit Britain in the summer. The NEC (National Exhibition Centre) is the biggest such venue in the country, with 12,300 seats in the main arena, and of course is expensive!

So it was getting on for midnight when Trevor got on to what for me was the high point of the evening, the “impartation”. In Florida Trevor had been given a cloth soaked in anointing oil which Todd Bentley had used to anoint people at one of his meetings in Lakeland. Trevor then offered to impart this anointing to everyone present. This is of course a biblical procedure – see for example Acts 19:12 and 2 Timothy 1:6. This anointing was what I had gone to Dudley to get, so I was quick to go forward to get it – as was almost everyone else!

Of course it was bound to take a long time to anoint over a thousand people. How they handled it was to line people up across the front of the hall facing the stage, with space behind them. Trevor walked across the line touching each forehead briefly with the cloth; I reckon he was taking less than two seconds per person. At the touch most people fell over, and were caught by “catchers” and lay on the floor- but only briefly. For, as Trevor had warned would happen, after only about five seconds each person was encouraged by the catcher to stand up immediately and move away, so that a new line could be ready as soon as Trevor finished the old one. It was a bit like serving communion at my church, but faster.

Eventually, just before midnight, I got my place in a line. Despite this conveyor belt approach, necessary simply because of the numbers, this was a profound experience. The cloth touched my forehead with a slight pressure but nothing like enough to push me over. But as it did I felt the power of the Holy Spirit come on me and nudge me over. This is not the first time this has happened to me, and sometimes I have fallen over, although at other times for various reasons I have chosen to stay on my feet. Last night I let myself fall over, and was caught gently and laid on the floor. I felt God’s anointing on me, the anointing which had arrived from Lakeland only that morning. I could gladly have lain there and soaked in God’s presence. I wasn’t allowed to, but getting up and going back to my seat didn’t take away the anointing.

I think this was probably more or less the end of the meeting. It was for me, as just after midnight I joined the stream of people leaving to take the anointing back to their homes around the country, and the world. Some people I met had come for the day from as far away as County Durham, perhaps twice as far as I had come. By the time they got home it must have been morning. I made it home on empty motorways just before 3 am, tired but rejoicing and praising the Lord.

Was it worth going all that way for a touch and a few seconds on the floor? By the standards of the world it might seem not. But things work differently in God’s economy. There were special reasons why I had to be there that night, some I know (I haven’t said everything here) and probably some I don’t. I wouldn’t have gone if it had just been for me, or even just so that I could blog about it. I went, and deliberately asked for my vicar’s blessing first, so that I could bring something back which would bless and transform my church and my community. Already today in my church I was able to pray with many people, especially those I felt were key people for God’s work in this community, to receive the same anointing. Some said they felt the power; one fell over. Others seemed unmoved, but that doesn’t mean nothing happened. As for what will come of it, we will see! Great things are beginning to happen in my church, and we are expecting even greater when my vicar and the others return from Lakeland.

96 thoughts on “A visit to the Dudley outpouring

  1. This is weird and wonderful. Thanks for sharing your experience. I’ll confess that much of it sounds wacky to me. But on the other hand, why not? Shouldn’t we pursue opportunities for spiritual experiences?

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  3. A couple of things to add here.

    One is that just before the final “impartation” Trevor made an appeal for anyone who had not given their lives to Christ or wanted to recommit them. About 20 mostly younger people came forward. He led them in a fairly standard prayer of commitment.

    Then a couple of things from the talk. Trevor mentioned a prophecy, I think this was from Bob Jones in the YouTube clip, that there would be a firestorm of the Holy Spirit in Britain. Trevor noted that for a firestorm to get started you needed lots of small fires spread across the country and wanted to get these small fires started. He also referred to Smith Wigglesworth’s 1947 prophecy which I quoted last year, and suggested that what is happening now is the beginning of the fulfilment of the last part of that prophecy:

    When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed, the world, has ever seen.

  4. Peter, I mean no disrespect, but this is the silliest thing you’ve ever written on this blog.

    I’m just re-reading, trying to be as objective as possible, and you mention an hours clapping, heat, fast songs and then a dramatic change of mood to meditative ones, long meeting, late night, feeling tired, being promised an impartation. Dang, Richard Dawkins would’ve fallen over!

    Also, your experience seems to have affected your usually top-rate exegetical skills. Acts 19:12 and 2 Timothy 1:6 are very different to what you have described.

    Oh, and I’m sure that the Wigglesworth prophecy has been fulfilled countless times now! I was excited the first half dozen times I heard it.

  5. Graham, I’m not sure what you mean about this being silly. I honestly described a meeting I went to. I summarised without comment what was said about the Wigglesworth prophecy. I don’t endorse everything about the meeting, but I do believe that I had a genuine experience of God there. What is silly about that?

    I accept that my mention of two Bible verses was not a proper exegesis of them. It was not intended to be. It was simply to point out that there is biblical precedent for laying on of hands and use of cloths for impartation of spiritual gifts. I accept that the situations are not entirely analogous. However, I do not take the position that some of the Reformers took that as Christians we should only do things which are exactly analogous with what we read about in the New Testament. So I consider helpful for Christian life various things without precise New Testament precedent, such as singing non-biblical hymns and songs with musical accompaniment, church services with sermons, etc etc – and in various modes of prayer ministry which generally if not precisely follow biblical models.

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  7. What’s silly about it, Peter – and I mean this as a backhanded compliment – is that someone like you would be taken in by this. As I said:

    ‘…you mention an hours clapping, heat, fast songs and then a dramatic change of mood to meditative ones, long meeting, late night, feeling tired, being promised an impartation. Dang, Richard Dawkins would’ve fallen over!’

    I just can’t see any reason to take it seriously. I’m not denying, of course, that something happened to you. My Uncle’s watch started working once when Uri Geller was on TV. I saw it with my very eyes! I just don’t think it proves Uri was the real thing.

    The only difference with that and this is that Uri didn’t take up a collection.

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  9. hi i live in oldbury about 20 minuets from dudley i,ve been going to dudley since day tree the worship is out of this world and God is moving like i,ve never seen before. i am a testament to healing cause i had a stutter for 23years and God healed it. the glory is really thick most night i,m drunk on the holy spirit before the meeting even starts the same anointing that is in lakeland is in dudley it is awesome

  10. That’s interesting, Kelvin, because I know a number of people who’ve been and felt no ‘glory’. It’s weird how (deceptively) subjective these things can be, isn’t it?

  11. My cousin was saved at one of these meetings. His wife had been praying for him for over 20 years and now he belongs to jesus! So maybe it all seems a little silly or wild to some of you, but I don’t suppose it will seem very silly or wild to my cousin when he is in eternity…

  12. And I completely agree you can’t go on feelings…as it says in the bible “feelings are deceptive above all things” – it is lasting fruit that counts. And I’ve been back many times and the fruit is there…new believes planted in churches, lasting healings. Someone said to me in a prayer line one evening “I love the salvations; not really fussed about the healings though”. I replied “I’m sure the people that need healing are fussed about the healings”! To which he did agree! So often we can focus on things that are so tiny and insignificant and forget to thank GOD for the wonderful things he is doing – saving the lost and healing the sick! This is what we pray and live for! YEAH!

  13. Thanks, Amelie. Yes, so many people seem to forget that people are being saved as well as healed at these meetings. The apostle Paul didn’t always agree with the methods and motives of other preachers, but instead of carping he rejoiced that the gospel was being preached, Philippians 1:15-18.

  14. Hi Peter

    I have just discovered this blog and the site of Revival Fires. Having watched a few video clips and listened to one of the messages it seems to me that once again, as in the Toronto Blessing, there is little or no room for critical reflection in the midst of all the hype and God claims. You may not know the answer to this, but it would be good to know how many healing claims have been subsequently substantiated by medical doctors. I.e. there was a known and medically documented medical condition prior to the “healing” and there is now medically accepted evidence that this particular condition is no longer present. Of course, even such documentation does not necessarily validate the claims made. All is a matter of interpretative frameworks and there is, of course, the still relatively little understood phenomenon of the placebo effect.

    On the other hand, I have no doubt that many who have testified at these and similar events have genuinely made a recovery even with no medical substantiation. This is inevitable given the clear links between emotional and physical well-being. However, to extrapolate from this to making extraordinary claims about “revival” is sadly a phenomenon that repeats itself at regular intervals in the current charismatic scene. I have documented reasons for such claims in Mark of the Spirit? and 10 years after that book was published I still have no reason to retract my argument that much of this “revival” speak is itself evidence of the triumph of secularisation in the West. This, of course, is a contested claim but still one with which, despite the increasing interest in spirituality generally, a number of sociologists of religion would concur.

    Peace

    Lloyd

  15. Thank you, Lloyd. I know there have been clearly documented healings, assuming that people are not blatantly lying. I don’t know how many. Indeed I doubt if anyone is counting, partly because they are likely overwhelmed by claims of healing and partly because there is a tendency to think that collecting statistics is unspiritual.

    As for the long term prospects for this outpouring and how it relates to advancing secularisation, I’m sure that is an interesting question but it is not one I am currently in a position to discuss. I haven’t read your book, but it does sound an interesting one.

  16. Thanks Peter for your prompt response. I am certainly not suggesting that people are blatantly lying, far from it. Nevertheless, in the emotionally charged atmosphere of healing meetings where people are asked immediately what has happened it is almost impossible psychologically to say “nothing”! Don’t misunderstand me, I am not making accusations of deliberate deception or the like (I think such accusations are actually decidedly unhelpful), merely pointing out the psychology at work in healing meetings generally.

    Furthermore, as is inevitable where those giving ministry are not medically trained, inaccurate (through ignorance not deception) claims are made. My wife (who is by no means a sceptic, but is a GP) made this comment about a video curently on YouTube where someone is apparently healed of asthma and then runs round the room. Unless someone was having an acute asthma attack at the time there is no way to be able to make this claim at that moment as asthma by its very nature is intermittent and being able to run round the room does not prove anything one way or the other.

    One of the things that really concerns me is that, please correct me if I am wrong, medical professionals are not fundamentally part of the healing team to offer wise, medically informed, counsel. Many doctors would be the first to acknowledge that they don’t have all the answers and that other input is necessary to treat the whole person. Sadly, it seems to me, that those who emphasise healing don’t appear to acknowledge the need for medical input in their meetings.

    Peace

    Lloyd

  17. Lloyd, I see your point about it being good to have medical input at the meetings. My point about blatant lying referred to people who brought to the stage medical evidence of their healing. Of course I couldn’t read this evidence, so can’t be sure that it really is evidence. But if it is, we have medically verified healings, and not just one or two.

    I refer you also to stories like the three year old girl raised from the dead, something which happened in a hospital and so must be medically verifiable – at least to the extent that a doctor must have pronounced her dead, although maybe after the event he would claim that he made a mistake and she was just in a deep coma. Again I don’t know the details, and can’t be sure someone wasn’t just making it all up. But to make up such a claim would be deliberate lying, not just wishful thinking.

  18. IMPORTANT NOTE: In comment 107953 on this post Revd David M. Owen writes that the following comment was not in fact written by him. This is indeed clear from the teaching on revival at his church website. I am not deleting this comment because it is the basis of further discussion, but I am adding this note to clarify that it is not genuinely from Revd Owen – Peter Kirk, 22nd September 2008.

    Hi Peter

    It’s nice to read a web-site that is not full of arguments but decent discussions. I think the thing to remembre is that, the flesh does creep into revival meetings (it just cant be helped – every revival in history proves this). I believe 100% that this is a move of God, and that it will intensify in the coming days. We just have to see past the human side of the move, and concentrate on Jesus, after all He is to be the centre of all that we do. We have prayed and prayed, for a move of God, and our Heavenly Father only gives good gifts to those who ask! This is certainly not devlish as many people are saying! They say this simply because they are uncomfortable with the manifestation of the Spirit of God, which has been the same in revivals down through the years.
    Praise God – Revival comes to the UK.

    Rev David M Owen
    Shekinah Tabernacle Swansea

  19. Amen to that Rev Owen. Revival has indeed come to the UK. Both my husband & I, and our Pastor, visited Lakeland a couple of weeks ago and brought back the anointing for our church in Glasgow (Glasgow Elim). Since returning we have started to see mighty signs & wonders.. God is working miracles in peoples lives, deaf ears opening (definitely something people can’t fake), severe pain going from their bodies, cancerous lumps disappearing. These aren’t strangers these are people who attend our church so we know for sure the problems were real and now they’re gone! Definitely not a placebo effect. Since God started pouring out his Spirit in Glasgow we’ve been having nightly meetings.. and we are so blessed by what God is doing we just can’t wait to get back to church. I know it can be easy to be sceptical but I ask those sceptics to take someone they know who is ill and go along to any of these meetings and let God be God and let Him show them what HE can do! All glory to Jesus. Amen

  20. Thanks, Karen. That’s exciting to hear! I can’t wait for my pastor and his wife and a couple of others from my church to get back from Lakeland on Friday.

  21. Having read this blog I would like to comment from my perspective as a member of Revival Fires who has been ‘serving’ at nearly every meeting. I must emphasise that I am speaking personally and in no way claiming to represent the views of Revival Fires or any other individual.

    I left my job and (adult) children and sold my house ‘down south’ to join Revival Fires so obviously am unable to speak objectively.

    However, I have observed the following;

    1. This is being described internally as an ‘outpouring’ not a ‘revival’ on the basis that revival happens outside of the church on the streets.

    2. I have interviewed the people as they leave the prayer area. I advise them to get confirmation of their healing at their next medical appointment. Reports are now being received from people who have visited their GPs and hospitals and had their healings substantiated.

  22. Thank you, Karen. That is helpful. I have tried to use the term “outpouring” rather than “revival”, at least since I was aware that, for good reason, this is the preferred terminology. I also long for it to become a true revival, happening on the streets as well as in church meetings, but I can’t say we are there yet.

    I am glad people are seeking medical confirmation of healings. I hope that in due course some of these will be published. I would like to be able to link to them from here. But then I am also aware that some people will not believe whatever proof is offered, cf. Luke 16:31.

  23. Thank you Karen (Duerr-Daniel) for your comments. I am not ashamed of being a sceptic. I think a healthy dose of intellectual enquiry is also one of God’s gifts to the church! It would be great to publish some clear medical evidence of healings that stand up to peer scrutiny from fellow medical professionals. My other question concerned whether there were medical doctors on the healing team. In my view this is essential to prevent both errors in so-called “words of knowledge” and potentially dangerous errors in instructions given to people post-prayer. I say so-called words of knowledge because of course what everyone defines as a “word of knowledge” is just a contemporary charismatic social construction. As a NT scholar I should point out that the phrase “word of knowledge” (logos gnoseos</i) in 1 Cor 12:8 is contested in the scholarly literature but most agree it is linked with the preceding “word of wisdom.” Tony Thiselton, in his magisterial commentary on 1 Corinthians, maintains that logos in context has the sense of “articulate utterance” – an utterance with “a nuance of intelligibility or rationality.” Furthermore, both “wisdom” and “knowledge” are catch-phrases of Paul’s Corinthian opponents and so both terms also need to be understood in the specific context of 1 Corinthians. Thiselton also has a careful discussion concerning whether these gifts are spontaneous, revelatory utterances and concludes: “In my view, these gifts are not given primarily in the moment of their use, but for such a moment .” He sees this gifts as involving “the notion of a trained, habituated disposition, shaped and nourished by the Holy Spirit for use at the moment of God’s choice. This is different from popular assumptions about ‘flashes of insight’ into this or that particular situation. While the text does not exclude this, it offers no evidence for it” (p. 942).

  24. As a member of Revival Fires Church Dudley I can testify that miracles are happening in our church every night as God’s awesome presence touches people in the meetings during this wonderful outpouring. Not only that, God is touching people on the streets of Dudley miraculously as well. You can see video testimonies of people on the streets of Dudley giving glory to Jesus by sharing their testimony of what He’s done The Dudley outpouring is far from over!

  25. Richard, I have now read the front page of your blog and watched the videos, and all I can say is, wow! I will pass a link to this to my vicar and others at my church.

  26. As much as healing miracles are a major part of this outpouring, what I think will really signify the transformation in Dudley and the UK to revival will be people get convicted of their sin and saved. This will ultimately translate into major church growth which was the hallmark of the Welsh Revival in 1904. There are signs that this is starting to happen though.

  27. Indeed, Richard. I want to move beyond too much focus on signs and wonders to the real message of eternal salvation. After all, Jesus had to do this, even at the cost of losing most, ultimately more or less all, of his followers.

  28. Firstly – thank you for everyone’s comments on this blog, other peoples comments have helped me with my decision on this ‘outpouring’.

    I am a loyal follower and servant of Christ and God our Father. I earnestly seek his presence and love.

    I have been watching the Florida Outpouring for some weeks now and really wanted to seek Gods presence and anointing. A friend of mine has just come back from Florida and seems totally changed and experienced something electric in Florida.

    He then advised me to attend the Dudley Outpouring and being fairly local I went along last night.

    Before I went I had done around 6 hours research on the internet about Todd Bentley and the relationship between Trevor Baker.

    I also read upon ‘testing the spirits’ from the bible and just prayed to God to guide me.

    So I turned up at 18:30pm and expected a huge queue but no queues and I comfortably got a seat right at the front.

    There were already members of the ministry team their praying with each other and i seen things ive not really witnessed in my church with people jerking around while praying with the holy spirit and even people throwing themselves on the floor and screaming.

    All this was a bit ‘weird’ for me. I have never had this type of experience at all, ever.

    Then we had around 1 hour of worship on our feet and it got so hot in there, everyone was sweating and the older people went and sat down. Then Trevor started to speak words of knowledge and called up various people such as ‘problems with vitals organs’ and around 5 people came up.

    At this point Trevor broke into a very similar type seizure that Todd Bentley does by shaking his head and saying very similar words which I caught onto straight away, especially after watching hours of Todd Bentley.

    He then began with anointing words (which also sounded familiar to Todd) and then began with the healing process. Out of 8 people that were came forward for healing i honestly and objectively can say i did not witness anything supernatural and seen no healings.

    People spoke of a feeling but not the feeling of healing. I felt some people felt they said they felt better, but they did not say ‘healed’. There were no people running around in joy etc

    Trevor then invited people up onto the stage who hadn’t felt the anointing (and yes – I was one of those).

    He then prayed for us and touched our heads, I didn’t feel anything, and i really wanted to be part of the 100+ who had fallen down when Trevor had laid his hands upon them.

    Trevor gently pushed my head down and i was guided down to the floor behind me. Where i sat up and prayed for something to come upon me as everyone else was on the floor in some form of state.

    I’m being honest here people, I did not just follow the norm, I had told God i wouldn’t just accept the environment and follow people or men, but would seek his presence that night.

    Honestly, it wasn’t there and i came away feeling very deflated and somewhat let down. I felt no more than i would going to any other church.

    There was also some time speaking about a financial seed and to reap from what you sow. It went on a little bit more than I thought necessary and I gave as I had attended that function and realise these things need funding.

    In summary, I did not feel anything at this outpouring and have invited my dear friend who attended Florida to come along with me next week to see if he feels what he felt in Florida.

    My focus is on God and God only. I seek his presence hence why I went along, but I am also honest and feel I need to test the spirits as guided and I have returned to prayer with God about this all.

    Trevor also spoke about a vision he had where he was in God’s presence at a dispatch area for Angels with missions. He seen God writing and God acknowledge him.

    If Trevor can prophesise then how come he has had take what Todd Bentley is doing and not receive this vision direct from God? This is an open question guys, not a dig.

    I’m trying to raise thoughts and questions regarding this, as brothers and sisters we need to work together to test all spirits and protect each other where necessary.

    God Bless you all

  29. Scott, thanks for this interesting story. Your experience at Dudley is actually not so different from mine, except that the crowds were less on a Monday night. You seem to have had a good evening as I did. But you didn’t actually feel anything of God’s touch. But then God doesn’t always work in the same way in every person. What matters is not what we feel but what God does and what we do.

    Like you I have plenty of questions about why God often chooses to work through Todd and Trevor but not in the same way through everyone. I just know that he does – or else a lot of people are lying or seriously deceived.

    Scott, I suggest that you go and do what God tells you to do as if you were full of anointing and fire from Todd. For such things should not be a matter of feeling. I suspect that, if you allow it to be, this will in some way be a turning point in your Christian life, that you will never be the same again.

  30. Thank you Scott for your account which seems to me scrupulously honest. I agree totally, Peter, that feelings are not the only criteria. However, it seems that there is some intellectual dishonesty here. People are regularly asked what has happened to them and by and large all they can go on is feelings – stuff like “I felt heat …” – all very subjective. Yet when people don’t feel anything they are then told not to rely on their feelings! Mmmm ….

  31. Lloyd, you make a fair point. But I never wanted to make this only a matter of feelings. More to the point, Todd Bentley has a powerful healing ministry which he is apparently able to pass on to those he lays hands on, and this ministry is apparently transferable. While there may be feelings associated with this transfer, it should also be appropriated with faith and not just by feelings. If I have some kind of gift of healing, as I believe I have and not just as a result of my visit to Dudley, then its operation does not depend on my feelings, but on God’s faithfulness which I appropriate by faith.

  32. Peter

    Thanks for your comments.

    Can i ask you how you ‘tested the spirits’, if you did at all as the bible says?

    Thanks

    Scott

  33. Scott, thanks for asking. Briefly, I applied the tests in 1 John 4:1-3, 1 Corinthians 12:3 etc by discerning whether there was false teaching concerning the core of the gospel. There was not – the teaching may not have been profound but it was not in fundamental error. I considered the fruit of changed lives: I could not of course discern this in detail at the meeting, but the combination of testimonies of real change and the sight of people coming forward to give their lives to Christ in response to an entirely orthodox gospel appeal helped to convince me that this could not be the work of Satan. And I applied the gift of discernment of spirits, as in 1 Corinthians 12:10; I accept that this is a subjective matter, but I believe that I can generally sense when evil spirits are at work. I hope this answers your question.

  34. Good for you, brother. Just as Godfrey Birtill sings: Just one touch from the Lord changes everything. Why not, why shouldn’t the Lord choose to impart blessing and anointing for service in this way – it is entirely scriptural, after all.

  35. It is fascinating to read the varying views expressed on this page. I have watched the Florida outpouring on at least 20 occasions and it obvious that GOD is doing something but there will always be those for and those against these ‘moves’ of GOD, if we all agreed on everything then there would only be one denomination (wouldn’t that be something).
    Would anyone be able explain what a healing ministry is because i can’t find one in the Bible (i may be wrong) The Bible says that there are gifts of healing that the Spirit divides to every man as He will, also the Bibles instructs us in James if we are sick to call for the elders of the church to pray over us and annoint us, it does not instruct us to go searching for others to do this.
    Having watched the outpouring and for the most part being blessed by it, i keep hearing that miracles are taking place yet i have not witnesses any, the Bible clearly states that gifts of healing and working of miricles are two different and separate gifts and whilst i have witnessed healings i can’t say that i have witnessed a miracle in the florida outpouring.
    My own feeling is that while the world needs a fresh move of GOD how sad it is that Christians should need one, shouldn’t we know and be in the will of God at all times.

  36. Thank you, John. To see what a healing ministry is like in the Bible, see what Jesus did, and what he sent the Twelve, and the 70 or 72, to do. The instructions in James are for Christians who are sick; healing ministries are primarily for unbelievers.

    It is indeed sad that Christians, now and repeatedly, need a fresh move of God, but it is true.

  37. Thanks John.

    Miracles get lumped together with signs and wonders as a package, very pentecostal and such. But yes, miracles are something else.

    And yes, the saddest thing is that Christians are getting excited (or enraged, depending on their viewpoint) by the happenings at Lakeland and beyond, rather than continuing daily in an ever-deepening relationship with God himself.

    Do we settle for mediocrity in our own walk with God?
    Do we rely on our own wisdom rather than seeking the Holy Spirit?
    How much is that doggy in the window?
    How easy is it to get sidetracked in the faith?

  38. hi, it’s very interesting to read you blog, thanks.

    forgive me for being confused but the issues I struggle with is when Todd says God told him not to tell people about Jesus but about the angel because people already know about Jesus but not about the supernatural??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2rHfRpvyU

    and what’s all this stuff about portals to heaven and being tied down to operating tables in heaven??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zMRChoojZo&feature=related

    can anyone help me here?

  39. Hannah, can you please tell me Todd’s exact words about “not to tell people about Jesus”, or exactly where in the video these words occur? It would be worrying if this were true. But I have watched the video before and don’t remember Todd saying this, certainly not as a general principle.

    The operating table in heaven part was I suppose a dream or vision, which is symbolic and not to be taken literally.

  40. Thanks all of you for the reponses, Peter most of the people going to lakeland for healing are christians so i don’t see your point there and of course the great commision is to go into the world and make disciples not to have healing crusades. we should search God for the supernatural to be happening daily in our lives not search the planet to see who is moving in it, that is how we will effect our nieghbourhoods. Sometimes i feel we have grown lazy and depend on the Todds of this world perform our part in the great commision as well as their own.
    Peter what do you believe the difference is between a healing and a miracle, can you please shed some light on this.

  41. about 40 seconds in, best you hear it directly so you get an idea of the context I think and to make sure my head isn’t scrambled.

    thanks for replying to me. Blessings

  42. Response to hannah.
    Just heard that clip on youtube and i think that there are a lot of people out who are anti todd bentley but i have to say that when you hear what is said by todd in that clip then you can perhaps understand why.
    I don’t think your head is scrambled Hannah and one does have to question (as todd did) why God would tell todd to promote teaching about an angel above teaching about Jesus, todd gives an answer and it is then up to the individual to (1th 5v1 1 John 4v1)test all things;hold fast what is good and to test the spirits.
    whether we are for or against todd bentley and the lakeland outpouring if you watch it, it is clear that God is moving and healings are taking place (as i said already i have not witnessed a miracle there yet) water to wine, feeding 5000 men plus women and children, calming the sea, stilling the storm, those are what the Bible says are miracles, not people getting healed. Also i would add that when watching last weekend 125 people gave their lives to Christ in one night so my opinion (for what it is worth)is that it is difficult for me to be against something where people are being saved and healed.

  43. John, I accept that in practice most of the people going to Lakeland are Christians. But this is not Todd’s intention. His heart is clearly that of an evangelist. But he can hardly refuse Christians admission to his meetings. Add to that the fact that most churches do not practice James 5:14-15, and it is hardly surprising that Christians are going to Lakeland for healing. As for the Christians who come from afar, many of whom are elders or equivalent, Todd wants to encourage and anoint them to go back home and, among other things, bring the healing ministry back into the local church where it belongs.

    I join you in praising God that so many people are giving their lives to the Lord – which implies that they aren’t all Christians when they come in!

    I don’t know exactly what the difference is between a healing and a miracle. There are clearly miracles which are not healings, but I am not sure if there are healing miracles which are distinct from regular healings. I agree with you that most of what is happening at Lakeland would probably be classified as healings rather than miracles.

    Hannah, thanks for that clip, in fact audio only, which is not the one I thought it was. I have now had time to listen to it. Yes, God was telling Todd to teach people about angels because they already knew about Jesus. Sometimes people need to know something more about their faith than about Jesus. Sometimes God leads preachers to talk about something else. Despite 1 Corinthians 3:1-2 and Hebrews 6:1-2 sometimes there are some Christians who are ready to move on beyond the “milk” of the basic teaching about Jesus and learn about some deeper things of God and how he works. That is the context in which God told Todd to teach Christians about angels.

    This evening, for the first time for some weeks actually, I watched some of Todd on God TV. I would challenge anyone who watched that, the first few minutes after he came on stage in fact on Wednesday night at Lakeland, to dare to claim that Todd is not focused on Jesus. For those first few minutes all he could talk about was Jesus and how wonderful he is, also mentioning how much greater he is than angels.

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  45. if todd is focusing on non christians then he should be teaching milk not meat.
    Lets trust God that whatever is being believed for in lakeland will change the world it certainly has to be an improvement on the state it is in now.
    I have not said that todd does not place Jesus in the centre of things and i have not said that his teaching on angels is wrong i simply said to a previous writer who wanted to be assured that her head was not scrambled that there are guidelines in place in scripture for us to discern what is of God or what isn’t. That comment is not directed at todd or lakeland it is a general instruction from God’s word and whether you class parts of Bible teaching as milk or meat it is still the word of God that should not be added to or have anything taken away form it.
    I do agree with you that last night todd focused on Jesus but i’m not sure why you pointed that out to me as i have said i don’t a problem in that area and i hope my above comments ahs shown that.

  46. John, was the video Hannah sent the link about, the one allegedly about “not to tell people about Jesus”, from Lakeland? It was audio only, which suggests not, and Todd specifically said that his audience on that occasion was Christians. Like any good preacher he preaches differently to different audiences.

    I was not referring to you when I mentioned some things that critics say, such as that Todd is not focused on Jesus. I am glad that you are not among those critics but have a well balanced attitude.

  47. Thanks for your responses, it is good to have people willing to answer my questions. Usually people ignore me when I ask!

    Blessings

  48. Peter, it says under the screen the words lakeland but that doesn’t mean that it was at lakeland and we all know what people can do when they are anti someone.
    If you google search ‘Todd Bentley operating tables in heaven’ and play the two videos (unfortunately they are under the title ‘disturbing account of his demonic visitations’ so they have been posted by someone anti todd) they are really interesting and todd clearly recalls an experience that he believes took place, if you like todd you will appreciate the videos. bless you

  49. John, is this the video you mean? I have seen this before, but it is not entitled “disturbing account of his demonic visitations”, which would anyway not be an accurate title. I note that it was added to YouTube in August 2007, and is not from Lakeland but is of Todd teaching at Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, as is clear from the podium. There is a transcript here, and the transcript dates the video to May 2003. (I do not endorse the comments on this site, from someone who doesn’t even recognise “I desire truth in the inward parts” as very nearly a quote from Psalm 51:6 and calls it instead “a Freudian slip of his imagination maybe”!)

    I note that at the end of this experience Todd says

    I come back to meeting, not come back like I wake up I’m in the meeting again

    In other words, he is saying this is some kind of dream or vision, not that he was in any sense really transported. Later he says

    people were having open visions

    Of course Todd believes that what he tells is a dream or vision from God with symbolic significance e.g. white boxes inside him representing “truth in the inward parts”. Of course it is entirely biblical to have dreams and visions from God with symbolic significance.

  50. I find it strange that you have to keep defending todd bentley as if everyone who comments here is attacking him!
    I quite clearly said that the videos are really interesting and todd clearly recalls an experience that he believes took place, if you like todd you will appreciate the videos.
    I did not attack todd and don’t understand why you always seem to react that way.
    Acts 5 38-39 is all the defence todd bentley needs so please don’t think that because some people can’t accept a new move of God that everyone is against it or that you are the only one who is for it.

  51. John, I’m sorry if it looked as if I was attacking you. I didn’t mean to attack you, only those who misrepresented Todd in the title they gave to this video and the comments they made on it. I know that many people are in favour of this movement, and others are quite properly being cautious but not condemning.

  52. whats this about a move or outpouring of the Spirit, I thought he already came. Has God been holding Him back to pour out at specific times in History in response to the prayers of Christians as if God was not wanting his people blessed and was saying maybe if they pray a little harder I’ll send Him. Is God wanting a move of the Spirit or is He waiting for The Church to move with what He has already given them. Dont we already have every blessing in the heavenly realms and the same power that raised Christ in us. If healing is already provided in the atonement and God is a good God, why the specific words which exclude so many. perhaps this is’nt an extra outpouring but the gift of faith opperating. why so much emphasis on feelings, how carnal can people get.

  53. Yes, Stephen, God does sometimes pour out his Holy Spirit again after Pentecost. See Acts 4:31, 8:17, 10:44,45, 19:6 etc. In 10:45 the word “pour out” is used explicitly. Yes, God is “waiting for The Church to move with what He has already given them”, and that is what the church is doing with these outpourings, so what is your problem?

  54. if God’s already given us the fullness of His Spirit, I dont believe He comes in pints, litres and gallons, why do we need more, and why do we need a subsequent “blessing” to the baptism in the H.S. to opperate in healing. My previous point was that presumably God wants people healed, saved and delivered more than we do, so if that being the case, why has he apparently waited until 2008 to send this “outpoaring” which is why I question if it is, and not just some Cristians doing what we were commisioned to do 2000 yrs ago. Also a side point, why do the “intercessors” believe they have to plead with God to send revival etc, as if He is sitting in Heaven, arms folded saying pray harder.

  55. Stephen, I don’t know why, but I do know that God commands believers to be filled with the Spirit, in the continuous tense, Ephesians 5:18. Todd is just doing what some Christians have indeed been doing for 2000 years, with some small variations. The trouble is that so many Christians have been unfaithful.

  56. to Peter Kirk

    I have watched the Todd Bentley Videos. Done a fair amount of research on the subject, also Dudley, and I see much to alarm me. I see no evidence that this so-calloed Outpouring is of the Lord. Promoting Angels, Pushing and “kneeing” folk while shouting “bam, bam” at them has no basis in scripture.
    What these hyped up events do prove is that many Christians have the itching ears that Paul writes about in 2 Tim. 4:3; and have the same attitude as the pharisees of Jesus day who demanded Signs “magic” and we know what the Lord Jesus Christ thought about them! How can Bible based men and women really believe that a man T.B. can hand on the “impartation” to others as if it is some sort of parcel or a virus. The real tragedgy is that many “experience seekers”, and easily led folk (especially those who don’t know their Bibles very well) are being decieved by this, as they were with the so-called Toronto Blessing. Listening to T.B. I heard no genuine Bible teaching only a tirade of words and theatrical behaviour. The Lord will hold responsible those who mislead others, and teach error.
    I pray that this recent phenomena will cease, before too much damage is inflicted upon the people of God. T.B. may be genuine in his belief but he is,I believe,
    genuinely deluded and self seeking.

  57. I pray that this recent phenomena will cease

    I utterly repudiate these words and break their power. May the Lakeland and Dudley outpourings continue with increased power from God through his Holy Spirit until the whole earth is filled with the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.

    Lilian, I give you one thing, that you accept that Todd is sincere, and unlike so many of my commenters are not calling him a liar. But please do not again call down curses like this on the ministry of your Christian brothers and sisters, on my blog or anywhere else.

  58. Hi Lilian and Peter

    If I may join in, as a critical commentator on phenomena such as Dudley and Toronto, that I do think it is unhelpful to get into extreme language on either side of the debate. We are genuinely trying to discern what is going on with claims that are being made. This blog has been outstanding in its welcoming of both positive and critical perspectives. Please can we leave pejorative language such as deception and curses out of the debate?

    Peace

    Lloyd

  59. I have found all your comments to be reasonable comments, both for and against. as for the evidence of miracles i do agree that you only hear about them and dont see them. Anyway, i watched the live meeting from dudley last night and the speaker is Charlie Robinson, an associate of TB. He gave words of knowledge, dental, optical and ears, people seemed to say they were being healed. People had silver fillings turn gold. All this is on camera as it happens, it is very good. I cannot doubt that this is another dousing of Gods Goodness upon us, to revive his people in a time when it is very obvious that this country alone, is going to the dogs, when every perversion concievable is wholly acceptable. Gods people do need to know Gods touch on their lives and I to am sceptical of these sorts of thing, but after now being the proud owner of 3gold crowns and some gold fllings, i cannot doubt that God is in this.
    (my fillings were previous the grey amalgam sort) I wouldve preferred white enamel, but then enamel is a poor mans choice. ‘For the gold and silver are mine..’

  60. Have you heard of holiness? 200 miles in 2 1/2 hours is an average speed of 80 miles an hour! Not quite the law abiding Christian so have yo repented or doe God bless you regardless. You must have been driving at close on a 100 mph at times!

  61. William’s comment does raise a serious question though. In these days of great concern over climate change and the need to reduce our carbon footprint why are Christians so quick to go hundreds of miles to Dudley or thousands of miles to Florida adding hugely to carbon emissions? I think James was way ahead of his time in locating prayer for healing firmly in the context of the local church!

    Blessings

    Lloyd

  62. Lloyd, I agree that Christians need to think carefully about carbon footprints. But sometimes the work of God is most important. I have actually driven very little in my car in the last year, this was perhaps my longest trip all year. And I have flown nowhere. Yes, I agree that these things are ideally situated in the context of the local church, but local churches were always meant to share good things with one another.

  63. Hi Peter, just to clarify – my comment was not meant to be a personal criticism but a general comment on Christians travelling many miles – the same thing happened with Toronto. I have heard arguments concerning the notion of pilgrimage and I appreciate that there is a long tradition of pilgrimage but it seems to me that the long and often arduous journeys involved in pilgrimage in the past formed a fundamental part of the spiritual discipline of pilgrimage and I am not sure how this applies in the same way today. I totally agree that local churches should share good things with one another and of course I am not against travel and even appropriate air travel but the kind of mass car and air travel that healing centres tend to encourage does leave me wondering …

  64. Thanks, Lloyd. I sometimes think that international air travel and getting through airports requires just as much spiritual discipline as any ancient pilgrimage! But I can’t claim that was true of my high speed (but not in fact 100 mph, no way my car can do that) visit to Dudley.

  65. Why is it no one ever judges this stuff by the Bible
    Who cares what you or anyone else felt thought or believed
    What matters is what the Bible says and Todd bentley is a heretic
    He preaches and teaches things that are unbiblical
    then again the Bible says the time will come when that is exactly what people will seek

    God help us and the thousands who have been deceived and the millions who are dying in their sins
    peter Jenkins
    missions director
    renewal christian centre
    Englandf

  66. Peter – I see you are at Dave Carr’s church. How are things going in Solihull?

    How is Dave Carr? Dave’s ministry certainly does have many verifiable healings and he certainly preaches a full gospel of repentance and salvation faith.

  67. Peter J, if you read through my various posts on Todd Bentley you will see plenty of assessment of his teaching according to the Bible. See especially this post, and the detailed theological analysis of Todd’s teaching which I linked to.

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  70. God the official creator has diverse but wonderful ways of doing things.However we must not overlook the fact that we have been put on earth here to manage it which has been going on imimorial-science,technology,knowlegde,etc are examples.Both believers and unbelivers are actively managing the earth.What is more, believers have the knowledge of God by way of His Word(written & spoken)to do this management well. God bless all

  71. John, thanks for your comment. But I don’t like people providing deliberately and obviously false e-mail addresses. I reserve the right to delete any more comments with false information.

  72. Dear Peter
    I was horiffied to read your site and discover that my name and ministry has been used as a supporter of Dudly outpouring. I can assure you that this is not the case, and could you please remove the comments from your web-page, that have been put there by somone posing to be myself.
    Thank You For Your Cooperation
    Revd. David M Owen
    Shekinah Tabernacle UK

  73. Really interesting hearing the comments.

    Im actually on the ministry team in Dudley. Just to clarify a couple of things, when checking people to see if they’ve been healed I do try my best to ask people to be HONEST with me, and not what they think I want to hear. As a result people do say they felt nothing sometimes, but many people do also get touched.

    More important than any of the miracles is that love is at the centre of everything, and that’s my heart and I know the hearts of many people I know in Dudley.

    I’ve personally witnessed some real verifiable, outstanding healings & miracles that have had lasting effects in peoples lives, many in the Dudley church itself.

    Peoples comments about the worship are understandable, as people connect with God in different ways, quiet and comtemplative is one of my favourite ways, but I do also enjoy the praise and worship as done in dudley.

    The best way to judge if somethings a move of God, is the effects and fruits of the Holy Spirit it has on peoples lives. I can honestly say, from what Ive seen its good fruit, but in any situation no one is perfect.

  74. David, thanks for your helpful comment. I guess some people still say what they think you want to hear, and that is why it is important for healing to be medically verified as you teach. Indeed what is important is not the miracles but the fruit including love.

  75. Scott, I have so far only seen the trailer, and the summary

    Mary Rhodes exposes the preacher who claims to cure cancer.

    But if these words and the trailer’s medley of clips out of context and negative comment are typical of the angle taken by the programme, I think Trevor Baker did well not to cooperate with the BBC. As for the Mercedes, how old was it, and how much does he use it for driving round the country? This man has a high profile and high pressure job, and needs the tools and salary to do it properly. But is the £100K salary confirmed, or just a rumour?

  76. OK, I have now seen the programme, now available on BBC iPlayer for 7 days and only in the UK (only the first ten minutes of the programme). I note that their evidence for what goes on at Revival Fires is taken largely from Youtube clips, clearly heavily edited. There is an inaccurate claim that what the church is doing is breaking the law – if any UK law did make this illegal it would be in serious breach of international treaties on freedom of religion. The £100K is in “salaries and expenses” for Trevor and his wife, for one rather exceptional year – but those expenses included several trips to the USA for their work, so it would be wrong to suggest that they pocketed that much.

    As for the C of E Canon who claims that an individual church should not claim to offer healing, that looks like simple jealousy that this is happening not under his own denominational control. I’m quite sure that Trevor Baker does not claim that he, not God, does the healing, as the Canon seems to imply.

    Trevor Baker has a perfect right not to speak to the BBC, and he was right to keep quiet when confronted with inaccurate accusations that he had personally claimed to be able to heal anyone. He probably has a case for criminal libel against the BBC for public accusing him of breaking the law when he is not. But I’m sure he’ll just ignore the programme and carry on doing the work God has called him to.

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  78. Hello Peter, I enjoyed reading your blog which is insightful and honest concerning the Dudley Outpouring especially since you went there to experience yourself. As a fellow Christian who believes in healing and moves in the Holy Spirit it is easy for other Christians and non Christians to be judgemental about it. But it’s all in the bible- healing, miracles, word of knowledge etc.

    In fact I am organising a Holy Spirit miracle power healing tent crusade in the West Midlands in July this year but since I don’t have Todd Bentley or Benny Hinn to promote it so I don’t think the BBC will investigate, plus the event is in the grounds of a Anglican church with a charismatic Catholic speaker. The prayer team is very gifted in the gifts of the Spirit but I suppose we dont have the razzmatazz or blast the music but come and see .. The Holy Spirit invites you!

  79. Philip, thank you for your comment. I pray that your event goes well, that the Holy Spirit moves powerfully. I will have to decline the invitation to attend as I am now living in USA, too far away for a one evening visit!

  80. Thank you for your prayer and encouragement Peter. Another thing that I found interesting about you was the fact that you travelled 200 miles to the outpouring – God rewards our hunger and our thirst! Last year I travelled with friends by 3 hour train from Birmingham to Aberystwyth and then 1 and half hour on a rented car up the Welsh coast to Ffald-y-Brenin to experience the grace outpouring for just 3 hours!! Our total commute time was 10 hours to stay at the retreat for under 3 hours to pray. But if God is doing something – I want it!! Blessings

  81. Thank you, Philip. I have heard of Ffald-y-Brenin, and friends have been there. It is somewhere I would have liked to visit if I had had the chance, but hopefully for more than three hours!

  82. Hello Peter, off to Dudley to see it for myself, a preacher I like is at the conference from America. Hoping to meet Trevor. Do you know him well Peter?

  83. Philip, I went back to the Dudley church twice in 2011 with my wife, once for a conference and once for a Sunday service. I met Trevor then, but I can’t say I know him well. We haven’t been back since as we are now in USA.

  84. Hi Peter, a prophet called Chuck Pierce will be there. I am going for half a day and staying for the lunch. I will let you know how it goes.

  85. Hello Peter, the conference in January with Chuck Pierce and David Herzog was a blessed time. Many miracles and great teaching was given. However the next conference with a speaker which I won’t name was a nightmare – many detected a occultic spirit but to Trevor’s credit he detected it on the 2nd night and prayed against it before the speaker preached.

  86. Thank you, Philip. Of course we always need discernment about Christian speakers. I am glad that Trevor was able to discern the occultic spirit and take the right action.

  87. Hi Peter, Jerame Nelson who came to the Dudley outpouring all those years ago is back this week. Have your heard him preach before?

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