Hear me on the BBC, talking about church attendance statistics

Sorry this blog has been quiet for a week. I have been enjoying a few days’ break in Italy.

You may have heard me on BBC Radio 4 this afternoon, on the programme More or Less which is about the use and abuse of statistics. I was interviewed last week about church attendance statistics, because the interviewer Paul Vickers had read a post from last year here at Gentle Wisdom, Lies, damned lies and church attendance statistics. And part of the interview was included in the broadcast programme.

You can hear this again on BBC iPlayer, starting at 8:50 minutes, for the next seven days I think and possibly only in the UK. There are two short segments of the interview with me, the first at 11:15. The programme, which is summarised here, will be broadcast again on Sunday 19th April at 8.00 pm. Or you can listen by subscribing to this podcast.

How not to burn out

Some good advice on how to avoid burnout, for Christian ministers everywhere when adjusted for their circumstances, indeed also for me – from someone who has been there and paid the price for it:

I can actually think of both moments, right, where I’ve burned out, or came close to burning out. I can think I was disconnected, in the sense of, you love God, you pray, your read your Bible, but I have a message tonight, I need to meet with Jesus so I have something for the people. And it gets away from “I just love you, Lord, here I am, like Mary sitting at your feet” which has been my message: the secret place, soaking, marinating. I mean… But sometimes the very message that you preach is the very thing God’s saying to you.

And then you get so caught up in the work of revival. I remember in Lakeland that the first six weeks of Lakeland I would set aside two to four hours before I would do anything else to wait on the Lord, or in the afternoons. And then you get so busy with all the appointments and media and all the work of revival. Pretty soon after the sixth week, you know, it dwindles down to “I’ve got a few moments here. God, what are we doing tonight?” And God still moved in power, God still moved in power. And you still love the Lord but you lose the preciousness of “I’m just here because I love you, and there is no agenda”.

And the very thing you are saying, you know, is “I may be going. Give me the twelve steps. Give me a goal. Give me…” But you’re right, God is saying to me “It’s about the rest, it’s about getting back to…” I built our ministry on that relationship. Of course I didn’t know there would be ministry, it was just I loved the Lord and out of that love for the Lord everything flowed. And I can think of both situations, you know, I just got disconnected from the Lord.

Todd Bentley, speaking on the latest video at Rick Joyner’s page of videos about Todd’s restoration, dated 27th March and entitled “Entering Rest” (starting at 03:57).

Later in the ten minute (starting at 9:11) Todd says:

I was so devoted to the work of the ministry. Ministry is not evil, but I got so caught up in the love of the work. That’s really what led, after ten years that’s what led to… there was no relationship left with Shonnah, with my first wife, there was none. And to me that was the biggest issue, was  the ministry became the mistress. And I never can have that happen again. I mean, that doesn’t mean I can’t have ministry and do ministry, but it has to be done different.

Good advice! May every minister of the gospel take it to heart.

Twitter Church

Elder Eric of Tominthebox News Network reports on the world’s first Twitter Church, inevitably based in Southern California. The pastor has never met any of his congregation, but keeps in touch with them only through Twitter updates – which, for those of us not already in the know, seems to be the latest fad which has taken over from blogging and Facebook. The pastor says:

I now share with people all the time. I update my Twitter status at least 4 times per hour. Sundays are when things really get special. I now have a group of people that all watch and read as I update my status repeatedly on Sundays from 11 AM to noon. During that hour, I send hymns and sermon notes via Twitter. We also text on our cells during that time. Last week one person even got saved. Although I don’t know who he is or where he lives exactly, I’m thrilled to add one more to the Kingdom.

April Fool? It’s always 1st April at TBNN. But, as a commenter predicts, very likely there will be such a church soon if there isn’t already. Indeed some of my blogging and Facebook friends are already using Twitter updates (which I receive only through Facebook) to report important news in the Christian world. Is a Twitter church the logical next step? Could this be a valid expression of church? I wonder!

Women are the prouder sex?

Women are prouder than men, but men are more lustful, according to a Vatican report which states that the two sexes sin differently.

This is the start of a BBC report entitled Two sexes ‘sin in different ways’. As this is supposedly based on a survey of confessions, it should be understood as an assessment of reality within certain (unspecified) cultures, certainly not as a theological pronouncement about how men and women should differ, nor as an attempt to promote a stereotype. But I can’t help wondering if the difference is more that women confess to being proud but men are too proud to confess to it!

Why men don't go to church: more perspectives

In a comment on my post Why real men don’t go to church Bill recommended a similarly named but longer article, Why Men Don’t Go to Church, apparently by Neil Carter. The name of Neil’s site, Christ In Y’all.com, betrays his US southern states perspective.

Nevertheless I found the article had a lot to say relevant to my own experience and situation. I am among those who are

not happy with “church as usual”

– even though my church is wonderful compared with most. It’s not so often the preacher who boils my blood, more often the way other things are done during the service. Basically I am one of those men who

despise their passive role in the church, whether they have been able to label their frustration or no.

I probably haven’t dropped out of church altogether because my untypical Anglican church is rather like a Southern Baptist one in that “There’s just so much to do“, something to keep me busy most Sundays. But when there isn’t I find it hard to remain positive.

I was interested by this quote, which fits my own experience. Years ago I

felt a growing, general desire to do something important for the kingdom of God, which automatically precludes being a layman! Most ministers and missionaries first struggled for a while with a very general “calling,” only to settle on a particular ministry after discussing their feelings over time with folks already in “the ministry.” Many missionaries then leave this country for unevangelized lands because they cannot find established churches in this country that satisfy their need for church life.

Within my own Anglican setup in the early 1990s, this was in effect the only route into doing anything in the church other than being ordained, which wasn’t for me as I didn’t see myself as a pastor. I know many ordained Anglicans are not working as pastors, but in effect they are all expected to start as such. To cut a long story short, I ended up in an unevangelised land.

I would, however, consider that the distinction Carter makes between masculine and feminine preferences is a cultural one, not a fundamental biological or spiritual distinction between genders. Not all men feel like me, no doubt some women do, and that’s OK.

Here is how Carter finishes his main argument: a man

needs men who know him well, who will fight with him, and who can be his comrades along the journey he is on. And finally, through various and often unexpected means, the Church of Jesus Christ will be a place where the sacrificial dying of Jesus can manifest itself for the sake of His Bride. When a man has found Her, he will suffer the loss of everything for Her just as Christ did in the beginning. Man, this is what you want.

Carter finishes with a plug for his own loose association of house churches. I am not so convinced that this is the way forward, but that is really a separate issue, one that I want to come back to sometime. But there is a lot in Carter’s article to make me think, and I hope to make think any church leader who is concerned about a shortage of men in the congregation.

Meanwhile Dave Warnock has posted twice more on this matter, apologising for offending me (but he didn’t really) and giving more of his own thoughts, to which I have responsed in a comment.

Why real men don't go to church

I was taken aback at the vehemence with which a pacifist Methodist minister attacked me for daring to suggest, in a comment on his blog, that

men leave the church … partly because the church has too much of a feminine ethos.

I made it very clear that I did not support the controversial assertion that A church should have a masculine ethos; rather I stated that

the church should be balanced in these matters.

Nevertheless Dave Warnock has responded with

There is a frequent and loudly stated view that men leave the Church because it is too feminine. … I believe this is complete rubbish and have done so for a long time.

Another Methodist minister, Pam BG, writes that she is

genuinely trying to understand the … comment … that the church has been ‘feminized’ and so it is unattractive to men – that’s why men are staying away from church. … I am puzzled by how an institution dominated by men can be either ‘feminized’ …

I must say I am puzzled by Pam’s puzzlement, and consider part of Dave’s response to be complete rubbish.

Both Dave and Pam make the point that the church is for the most part led by men, and so cannot be feminised. But by what kind of men is it led? Men who are widely perceived as being weak wimps, and often in their pronouncements seem to do their best to perpetuate this stereotype. Men who like to wear brightly coloured dresses, at least in my own Anglican church. Men who are often rather camp, feminine in their behaviour, and perceived as very probably either gay or paedophiles while often being hypocritical in condemning such people. Men who seem happy to spend their time doing feminine style things, i.e. most church social events, with groups of mostly women. Men who gladly consume the typical church diet of quiche with weak milky tea, who are therefore not real men.

There are of course among actual church leaders huge numbers of exceptions to these stereotypes. But sadly there are also far too many who fall into this kind of behaviour pattern, perhaps partly because they feel it is expected of them, by society in general and by their majority female congregations.

Anyway, I’m sure Dave and Pam have realised by now, even if they don’t want to admit it, that at the local level churches like theirs are not really controlled by the mostly male official hierarchy, but by the armies of mostly women volunteers who keep their churches running, and who exercise their control by implicit threats to quit their activities if the minister dares to do anything which they disapprove of – which would probably include almost anything likely to attract men to the church.

So the problem is a self-perpetuating one. Dave may be right that it originated during the time of the world wars. But the vast majority of the men who don’t go to church now are too young to have fought in them, or indeed in any protracted war except for the recent Iraq and Afghanistan debacles. The men of this generation have not so much left the church as never been there, at least for any regular service. Why? Because several generations ago the church was feminised and has remained so.

So what can be done about it? Here, I am glad to say, Dave does much better. He writes:

If we want men in our church, we don’t need to become more masculine, instead we need to:

  • become more Christlike
  • support discipleship that is routed in the teaching and behaviour of Jesus
  • build strong faith that understands how God will be in the shit with us
  • build our understanding that God is found in the shit
  • build strength and depth to our faith and discipleship so that it can survive hell on earth
  • be courageous in following the teaching that Jesus actually gave, not a version built on our cultural preconceptions.
  • tell and celebrate the stories of people who found Jesus in adversity, in pain, in suffering, in hell on earth. There are plenty of inspiring tales of people who gave their lives for others; of people showing love, & forgiveness; of lives changed for the better; of courage, steadfastness and determination of faith.
  • work at honest and integrated lives that reflect the life & teaching of Jesus ie be authentic.
  • do all this within a community that is strong enough to carry us when we can’t hear Jesus and accompany us carrying the Christ light when we are stuck in the shit of life and can see no light, no hope and no God.

And by the way if we got these things even half way right we might well see more women in church as well as men.

Indeed, Dave. But this is largely what I mean in practice by becoming more masculine, in the stereotypical way. For a start by using the s**t word, three times in this extract, you are being masculine, as people understand it, and certainly breaking that stereotype of the feminised minister. Actually, apart from the poor exegesis of 1 Corinthians 16:13, this is not all that different from the thoughts which originally raised your blood pressure.

Of course what we are talking about is not a matter of real masculinity. But those “real men” types will not go near a church which they perceive as feminine.

Dave, I join you in objecting to the stereotypes of masculine = courageous, feminine = wishy-washy like church tea. But these ancient identifications (going right back to the etymology of the controversial Greek word in 1 Corinthians 16:13) are still with us in popular culture, and are still a major barrier to a greater penetration by the church into western society today.

The Coming Evangelical Collapse?

Michael Spencer, the Internet Monk, makes interesting predictions of The Coming Evangelical Collapse (1) (2) (3). He denies they are prophecies, but to me they have a prophetic edge, not as infallible predictions but as a prophetic call to the church to take note of what is likely to happen in future, and to act accordingly. I have not read the large number of comments on these posts. Thanks to John Meunier for the links.

Michael starts part 1 as follows:

I believe that we are on the verge- within 10 years- of a major collapse of evangelical Christianity; a collapse that will follow the deterioration of the mainline Protestant world and that will fundamentally alter the religious and cultural environment in the West. I believe this evangelical collapse will happen with astonishing statistical speed; that within two generations of where we are now evangelicalism will be a house deserted of half its current occupants, leaving in its wake nothing that can revitalize evangelicals to their former “glory.”

But it seems to me that here Michael is really talking about the US scene. In the rest of the West the collapse he is predicting has already taken place, more gradually. Perhaps it already has also in less conservative parts of the USA. He seems to be suggesting that the evangelical church in the US Bible belt will soon become much more like it currently is here in the UK and elsewhere in traditionally Protestant northern Europe. Here we already have “a de-church culture where religion has meaning as history, not as a vital reality.”

From a global sociological perspective the continued high level of evangelical church attendance in parts of the USA is an anomaly in the century old trend towards the secularisation of the West. I believe that the church can buck this trend if it really relies on the power of God to do so. But if it retreats into conservatism without real substance, as seems true of so much US evangelicalism, it becomes a movement of reaction which will not outlast the current generation.

Michael suggests in part 2 that the beneficiaries of the collapse of traditional evangelicalism will be “the pragmatic, therapeutic, church growth oriented megachurches”, as well as “An evangelicalized Catholicism and Orthodoxy”. But I feel he is too negative about these megachurches. They may not preach “the Biblical Gospel” in the traditional way, but that does not imply that those who attend are not genuine Christians. Indeed “Core beliefs will become less and less normative and necessary in evangelicalism”, but salvation is not by “core beliefs” in doctrinal propositions, but by a living faith in and relationship with God through Jesus Christ. To the extent that megachurches do promote this (and some certainly do) I don’t think it is right to criticise them.

Michael also predicts that

A small portion of evangelicalism will continue down the path of theological re-construction and recovery. Whether they be post-evangelicals working for a reinvigoration of evangelicalism along the lines of historic “Mere Christianity,” or theologically assertive young reformed pastors looking toward a second reformation, a small, but active and vocal portion of evangelicalism will work hard to rescue the evangelical movement from its demise by way of theological renewal.

This is an attractive, innovative and tireless community with outstanding media, publishing and leadership development. Nonetheless, I believe the coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches. But I do believe many evangelical churches and schools will benefit from this segment of evangelicalism, and I believe it will contribute far beyond its size to the cause of world missions.

Again this reminds me of British evangelicalism, small and not always conservative but generally more active than the US variety and with a worldwide influence disproportionate to its numbers.

I am also encouraged by the prediction that

Charismatic-Pentecostal Christianity will become the majority report in evangelicalism.

But Michael is right that this strand, as well as others in evangelicalism, needs to put its house in order concerning leadership and avoiding heresy.

It is also interesting that he picks up the possibility of “a “rescue mission” from the world Christian community”. British evangelicalism has already benefited a great deal from input from African, Asian and Latin American Christian leaders. If the US church accepts this kind of mission it will also benefit greatly.

I must also agree with Michael’s last point in this part,

it is long past time for westerners to use their resources to strengthen work within a nation and not to just send Americans to the mission fields.

Indeed – and include Europeans here.

In part 3 Michael asks if all of this is a good or a bad thing. He writes that

there is something fundamentally healthy about accepting that, if the disease cannot be cured, then the symptoms need to run their course and we need to get to the next chapter. Evangelicalism doesn’t need a bailout. Much of it needs a funeral.

But not all; not by any means. In other words, the question is not so much what will be lost, but what is the condition of what remains?

Michael sees a good number of hopeful signs in the different parts of the church he has already looked at, but also sees in each of them conditions which may or may not be fulfilled.

But it is impossible to not be hopeful. As one commenter has already said, “Christianity loves a crumbling empire.” Christianity has flourished when it should have been exterminated. It has conquered when it was counted as defeated. Evangelicalism’s heyday is not the entirety of God’s plan.

I think we can rejoice that in the ruins of the evangelical collapse new forms of Christian vitality and ministry will be born. New kinds of church structure, new uses of gifts, new ways to develop leaders and do the mission- all these will appear as the evangelical collapse occurs.

But again many of the new ways he predicts, such as house churches and the abandonment of the seminary system, have long been a matter of course in some church strands here in England. In certain quarters I have heard that the US church is several years ahead of the UK one, in its good and bad aspects, and in some ways that is true. But I can’t help thinking that in other ways, good and bad, British evangelicalism is decades ahead of the American variety.

God is alive & well, and on the side of a bus

Everyone (at least among Church of England clergy) is getting into it using this site, or so it seems from the examples of Bishop Alan, Sam Norton, Maggi Dawn, Doug Chaplin, and my old friend Martin Jackson, plus a whole competition from Madpriest. So, not being one to miss a blogging bandwagon, I must show off my own example of this, and not just in an edit to an old post which hardly anyone will notice. To mark the day when the real Agnostibuses are off the road at least in London, here is the slogan written by a friend of mine for our church, as it would appear on the side of a bus:

bus-god-is-alive-well

UK churchgoing is no longer in decline

For many years, in fact probably for more than a century as a general trend, church attendance in the UK has been in decline, a symptom of the gradual secularisation of the western world. So it is encouraging to see, admittedly only in one year’s figures so far, a significant reversal of this trend. This has been announced by Tearfund in the results of a detailed survey, but the press release with the full figures is hidden away on their website, and although Ruth Gledhill mentioned this in passing it took my Rural Dean Andy Griffiths to find this and republish the details.

The figures show a surprisingly large increase in reported churchgoing in just one year – in Ruth’s words, “research by Tearfund shows churchgoing rising by as much as a quarter”. But the results must be taken with a pinch of salt because it is well known that some people claim to attend church more often than they actually do. Here are the headline figures:

One in four UK adults (26% or 12.8 million) go to church at least once a year.

The Tearfund data reveal that 15% of UK adults (7.3m) attend church at least once a month at 10% at least once a week (4.9m).

Contrary to reports that church attendance is waning, this tracking research (which interviews 7,000 adults every six months) shows that church attendance in Sep 08 was actually slightly higher than a year previously in Sep 07.

Significant increases in church attendance among UK adults (aged 16+) from September 2007 to September 2008:

  • at least annually +5%   21% to 26%
  • at least monthly  +2%   13% to 15%
  • at least weekly   +1%    9% to 10%

The broader trend over three years since the start of the tracking, shows that churchgoing is holding up well:

  • at least annually: Sep 08 recovery from low point of 21% in Feb 07 but still below Feb 05 level of 29%
  • at least monthly: Sep 08 and Feb 05 are equivalent, at 15%
  • at least weekly: Sep 08 and Feb 05 are equivalent, at 10%

Another detail:

By denomination, in the ‘established’ church rather than smaller denominations:

  • Church of England +6%  28% to 34%
  • Church of Scotland +6%  39% to 45%

I’m not quite sure what this means – that 66% of people who call themselves C of E don’t attend church even once a year? But these are figures which can be compared with the Church of England’s own statistics, when they are published. This will help us to discern whether this is a real increase in churchgoing or an artefact of survey methods.

Even if this is a real increase, it is still just one year’s figures. So it is far too early to suggest any general revival of religion or end to the secularisation of Britain. Also of course an increase in once a year churchgoing hardly indicates a mass turning to Christ. It is possibly an indication that in a time of financial uncertainty people are looking more towards non-material solutions to their problems. But after decades of bad news for the churches it is good to see an encouraging sign.

Rick Joyner on unity and restoration

I have had to reject several recent comments on my posts about Todd Bentley, because they contain unsubstantiated allegations against Todd and others. My policy is to reject such comments as a matter of principle, and also because they might get me into trouble with libel lawyers. Among those who have persistently tried to breach this rule is a certain Susan. But I should thank her for giving me a link, in a comment I rejected as explained here, to a new article by Rick Joyner.

In this article Rick Joyner writes first about unity:

One reason there has been so much division in the church is because we have tried to unify around too much. The nation of Israel was only required to be in unity on two basic matters—worship and warfare. They were to worship Jehovah together in the manner and place He had prescribed, and they were to always be ready to mobilize and defend any of the other tribes that were attacked.

If the church would live by this same wisdom, her power, authority, size, wealth, and impact would multiply quickly. When we discuss being in unity about worship, we need to steer clear of the nuances that the Lord has given us liberty in, such as the style of music. However, we do need to be in unity about Who we worship and how complying with the biblical standards and teachings on morality, integrity, and other basics that should be common to all Christians. The Moravians stated the following: “In the basics there must be unity. In the other matters there must be liberty, and in all things there must be charity.”

As far as warfare is concerned, as Christians we should always be ready to mobilize with other believers to defend any of our brothers or sisters, or other churches, who are attacked. Presently, this is quite rare, but the times that I have seen it happen have resulted in a bonding together of believers in a special, powerful, and lasting way.

Amen! But how often we see Christians attacking rather than defending one another! This is my point in joining the “Religious North”.

Rick goes on to explain how he got started on his ministry of restoring fallen Christian leaders, when he was prompted by a dream to offer help to Jim Bakker. To Rick this is an example of how “as Christians we should always be ready to mobilize with other believers to defend any of our brothers or sisters”. So he writes:

It was for this same reason that when the situation with Todd Bentley happened and I was asked to help restore him, I did not hesitate. I was warned by some that helping Jim Bakker would cost me and my ministry very dearly, and it may have with some, but the favor of God is worth much more than the favor of all men. I know Todd has asked what I expect to get out of helping him, wondering why I would want to when it seems the whole church    is mad at him, but the dream the Lord gave me over twenty years ago is still as real to me right now as when I first woke up after having it. I’m not here to build a ministry—I’m here to do God’s will, but I also know the church will never be trusted by God or men until we have His heart for restoration. When the world sinned, turned away from Him, and fell into terrible debauchery, the Lord did not condemn it—He came and gave His own life to save it. Those who have His heart will do the same for those in trouble.

Again, Amen! But sadly some people (who I won’t link to) have used this article as an excuse to attack their Christian brother Rick. Well, following Rick’s teaching, I at least am ready to defend him, and Todd, when they are attacked.

Meanwhile, while I am again on the subject of Todd, there is an interesting update from Fresh Fire, dated 23rd January and also found thanks to Susan, which announces the return to ministry of Shonnah Bentley! She and her son Elijah will be visiting Fresh Fire’s Uganda Jesus Village in the spring. There is also in this announcement the following interesting, and in part surprising, news:

The first news item that we wish to bring to your attention is that Todd Bentley has resigned from his involvement with Fresh Fire Ministries Canada and will continue a process of restoration under the capable leadership of Rick Joyner and his association. Because Todd founded Fresh Fire Ministries, we feel it appropriate and honorable to give FFM’s name to him to use as he chooses when he starts ministering again in the future. We here at FFM are in the process of changing our name to reflect our present and future focus as we continue with the God-given mandate for this ministry. Check back with us soon to see our new name, logo and image.

So FFM is clearing the way for Todd to be restored to ministry and return with a new Fresh Fire organisation. It will be interesting to see how this works out.