Category Archives: Charismatic Issues

Posts about the charismatic movement, the gifts of the Holy Spirit etc

Two Anglican priests' thoughts on charismatic experience

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My post on speaking in tongues seems to have stirred up quite some interest. In addition to several comments and the link from Darrell Pursiful which I mentioned in my first follow-up post, it has attracted links from two Anglican priests on the edge of the charismatic movement, Tim Chesterton and Sam Norton.

Tim, once of Essex but now of Canada, dispels any suggestion that for him charismatic experience was something he enjoyed as a teenager in the 1970s but has now grown out of. In his new post he writes about “words of knowledge”. I didn’t mention in my previous posts that these “words of knowledge” are a major part of the prayer ministry at my church (which, sadly, is not well described at its website). Every Sunday morning before the service a group of us pray together and also wait for God to reveal to us specific prayer needs, such as sicknesses which God wants to heal. These are read out in the service before the final time of worship in song and prayer ministry, to encourage people to come forward for prayer for healing etc.

I don’t personally have such words on a regular basis. But a couple of weeks ago I had a sort of vision of someone with a particular health problem sitting in a particular part of the church. I wasn’t at all sure that this was from God and not just my imagination, but I shared it with the group in a very tentative way. Despite my uncertainty this was read out, there was indeed someone with that problem in that part of the church, and they came out for healing prayer.

Now it took a long time for my church to get to the point where that was acceptable; other churches may need to move gradually in that direction.

Sam, still here in Essex, linked to a recent post of his which I had not read before, about his visit to the New Wine Leadership Conference. It is good to see how he is edging towards a greater acceptance of the charismatic movement. To me, as an evangelical Anglican, the kind of “worship” experience which he criticises is quite normal, but I can see why he as a high churchman found it difficult to accept. And if he can’t take Bill Johnson, I certainly wouldn’t recommend to him Todd Bentley!

But I wonder if there is really “an underlying disparagement of the intellect” and “a division between ‘head and heart'” at New Wine. What I have seen is the opposite, a rejection of the division between ‘head and heart’ which underlies the idolatry of the intellect and disparagement of experience so common in many church circles, together with messages intended to appeal holistically to the whole person, including head and heart. I quoted here before Smith Wigglesworth’s 1947 prophecy that

When the Word and the Spirit come together, there will be the biggest movement of the Holy Spirit that the nation, and indeed, the world, has ever seen.

Surely it is this coming together of the Word and the Spirit which New Wine is aiming to achieve. And there are signs that it is beginning to happen.

I’m sure Sam will be happier as a “Charismatic Catholic” than he is in New Wine circles. And I hope on Pentecost Sunday, this Sunday, he will indeed have the courage to carry out his intention to preach about a “release of the spirit”, and that this release becomes not just words or doctrine but a real experience of many in his congregation.

Sam also links to an older autobiographical post of his own, Guarding the Holy Fire, which is long but fascinating. May there be in his parish of Mersea a real visitation of the Holy Spirit, not as an explosive fire which blows itself out (read the post to understand this allusion) but as a long-lasting holy fire which burns up all the rubbish and provides lasting heat and light. Todd Bentley is praying that the revival fire in Florida will light fires all over the world. May this happen even in Mersea, as well as here in Chelmsford. And while I don’t want to wish anything uncomfortable on Sam, he just may find that this revival doesn’t fit his expectations about a proper liturgical setting!

I was interested to see also in this post of Sam’s these words from Marianne Williamson:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. …

Sam gives the whole quote. These words, as seen in a clip from the film Coach Carter (which in fact cuts the quote to leave out the parts about God), formed the basis of a recent sermon at my church’s youth service. It was certainly a powerful sermon. With the Holy Spirit working in us we are indeed “powerful beyond measure”. But for many of us our deepest fear is of allowing that power to work in us (to continue the Williamson quote)

to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. …
As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

It is the Holy Spirit who can liberate us from our own fear. May we have the courage to let him do so.

Filled with the Spirit, not with emotionalism

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Dr Platypus, Darrell Pursiful, linked to my last post on speaking in tongues and also gave a link to an older post of his, Filled with the Spirit. That post gives, it seems to me, some very sensible teaching on what baptism and filling with the Holy Spirit really means. But I am not entirely convinced by the distinction he tries to make between pleroo and pimplemi.

Darrell brings up the old chestnut that encouraging the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit, especially speaking in tongues, is in fact encouraging emotionalism. But those of us who have experienced these gifts in our own lives know very well that they are not just matters of emotionalism. Yes, human emotions are affected by the touch of the Holy Spirit, often leading to releases of tears or laughter, and to joyful praise and worship. For some people the Holy Spirit brings release from years of oppression and suppression of emotions, and healing from depression. When the pressure is released the emotions bubble over, like the froth from a newly opened champagne bottle. But in the bottle there is not just froth, there is the beautiful new wine of God’s presence, which is clearly felt and known by those whom the Holy Spirit touches.

Anyway, what Darrell says is true of most churches in western countries, except for some extreme Pentecostal and charismatic ones:

Some will wonder about the danger of emotionalism if such experiences are encouraged. To that I would say that there are no doubt many spiritual dangers facing the churches of which I have been a part for the past forty-some years, but unrestrained emotionalism has rarely been one of them! Rather, the danger for most of us in our relationship with God is not emotionalism but the lack of emotion. Every loving relationship involves emotions. There must be more than emotion—things like friendship, communication, honesty, trust, and so forth—but if I never showed emotion toward the people I love, something would be missing.

Meanwhile there is an amazing revival going on in Lakeland, Florida, led by Todd Bentley. Apparently there have been meetings there every night for more than a month, with wonderful miracles happening. This has been showing on God TV (late every evening here in the UK), and also as live streaming from this site, with (rather poor quality) recordings of previous meetings available at all times. Christian leaders from all over the world are flying to Florida to catch the fire from this revival. I have just been watching some of this – the evening meeting from 5th May, starting after the “worship” about 90 minutes into the four hour broadcast and listening for about 40 minutes.

Now Todd Bentley, a tattooed former drug dealer from Canada, is not everyone’s style. He is certainly very different from the other preachers from British Columbia I have mentioned here recently. His preaching is not classic expository preaching, and I’m sure he makes no claim that it is. He is quite deliberately appealing to his congregation’s emotions rather than to their intellects. Not everyone likes this, I know. I have seen some really rather ridiculous criticism of what is going on in Lakeland. But it should be clear from watching it that people are being touched by the power of the Holy Spirit and their lives are being changed. I believe this is God’s work. If others are not convinced, they should at least follow Gamaliel’s principle in Acts 5:38,39, and remember what happened to those who opposed Moses.

Google found for me an excellent post on the subject by John Allister, who quotes Greg Haslam quoting Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Here is part of John’s post:

But just because we have the Holy Spirit, that does not mean that we have the fullness of experience of the Holy Spirit.

And if someone asks “Surely we got it all automatically when we believed?” Dr Lloyd-Jones replied “If you have got it all, why are you so unlike the New Testament Christians? Got it all? Got it all at your conversion? Well, where is it, I ask?”

Filled with the Holy Spirit by Greg Haslam in Preach the Word

Should all Christians speak in tongues?

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Brian Fulthorp, a Pentecostal pastor, has opened up discussion of speaking in tongues, with two reports on books, a review of the 40th anniversary edition of John Sherrill’s book They Speak with Other Tongues, and a brief notice of a new book Initial Evidence. Tim Chesterton also mentioned speaking in tongues in a great post which is in effect his testimony of how he became a Christian.

Like Tim, I first prayed in tongues here in Essex in the 1970s. In fact I can tell you the date, 11th April 1979, and the precise spot, 51°42’54.32″N 0°31’9.58″E (according to Google Earth). The evening before I had had a long talk with some older Christians about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, at the end of which I let them pray for me. Nothing happened at that moment, and I was left confused, but the next evening as I went for a walk to think and pray about what had happened, I suddenly started to speak in tongues. In fact the words came out in a flood. as if a dam had broken, and at the same time I felt a great release of previously dammed up joy and peace. I have been praying in tongues on and off since that day, so for nearly 30 years, and in general consider it helpful as part of my prayer life.

My initial reluctance to accept this gift was largely because of the teaching on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which seemed to go with it. According to the kind of teaching I heard (although maybe they didn’t intend to put it quite like this), since before that day I didn’t speak in tongues, I must have been some kind of second class Christian, and what I needed to become first class was to experience something called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The way to know that I had received this would be if I spoke in tongues. This is more or less the classic Pentecostal doctrine of Initial Evidence which Brian refers to. And it was this teaching which was a stumbling block to me as a young Christian, a recent graduate, well schooled in UCCF‘s brand of evangelicalism. Nevertheless, I was hungry then as now for all the good things God had for me, and so I let these people pray for me to receive this Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

At that time, the late 1970s and the early 1980s, a lot of well known Christian authors were writing their books giving their different perspectives on this Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some embraced the Pentecostal doctrine. Some rejected speaking in tongues as demonic, or at least as unhelpful emotionalism. But the most convincing, to me at least, were the ones which concluded that speaking in tongues is a genuine and good gift from God, one which Christians should seek, but not evidence of or a prerequisite for a full Christian life.

And that is basically the position I have come to over the years. I continue to speak in tongues, and to encourage and pray for others to do so if they want to. But I don’t condemn those who don’t speak in tongues or don’t want to as unspiritual or second class Christians. I am happy to work alongside Pentecostals as long as they don’t make too big a thing of this gift, and alongside those who don’t speak in tongues as long as they don’t reject me because of my experience and the way I pray.

So, what of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit? I know that this is the name often given to the very clear experience, accompanied by speaking in tongues, which I had. And I don’t reject the name as long as it is not associated too dogmatically with what John the Baptist prophesied about the ministry of Jesus:

I baptise you with [footnote: Or in] water, but he will baptise you with [footnote: Or in] the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:8 (TNIV)

I believe that all Christians receive the Holy Spirit at conversion, and perhaps this is what John was referring to in this verse. Nevertheless, many who profess to be Christians have never had any experience of the Holy Spirit working in them. That is the position I was in as a student in a UCCF group. I knew my doctrine backwards, but only in my head, but I knew I was missing out on something, especially when I met Christians who had experienced the reality of the Holy Spirit at work in their lives.

In my church these days we don’t make a big thing about speaking in tongues. And I think this is wise. But in line with practice at for example Soul Survivor and Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship, we pray for people, whether already Christian or not, and expect them to have an experience of the reality of the Holy Spirit. For those not already Christians, this will be accompanied by repentance and faith; for those already Christians, this will be some kind of second experience. The evidence or manifestation of this experience is very varied – it may be shaking, or tears, or laughter, or even the infamous Toronto Blessing animal noises, or it may just be an inner sense of peace or joy. Such experiences can be repeated. But somehow having had one once is enough to change a person’s life, because they suddenly realise, not just in their heads but deep in their hearts, that God is real, alive, and working inside them.

When you have experienced all that, it somehow seems petty to try to insist that this experience is only fully valid if the evidence is speaking in tongues.

Packer on Pentecostalism

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I tend to associate J.I. Packer with a kind of Reformed evangelicalism which values intellectualism more than experiences and is suspicious of any kind of manifest activity of the Holy Spirit. So I was interested to read at Pentecostal pastor Brian’s blog sunestauromai – living the crucified life an extract from an interview Packer has just given to a Pentecostal periodical. Here is most of what Brian quotes from Packer, apparently with Brian’s emphasis, and the periodical’s American spelling:

The Pentecostal emphasis on life in the Spirit, which became a big thing at the turn of the 20th century, was absolutely right. It was an emphasis that hadn’t been fully grasped by other evangelicals for a long time. The up-front quest for fellowship with God that grabbed the whole of the heart and therefore had emotional overtones and the openness to a recurrence of some of the signs of the Kingdom was right. …

It’s simply a marvelous work of God that when the Pentecostal version of the gospel has been preached all around the world for the past half-century there has been a tremendous harvest. It’s a wonderful work in our time, which we can set against the decline of Christianity in North America and Western Europe. Most notably in Africa and Asia, Christianity has been roaring ahead through the Pentecostal version of the Christian message and life in the Spirit. I celebrate it and thank God for it. There have been older evangelicals who have set themselves against distinctive Pentecostal emphases as if there’s something wrong with it. I have not lined up with those folk and indeed have argued that their attitude is mistaken.

Now I am not a Pentecostal by denomination; like Packer I am an Anglican. But I am one of many Anglicans, and people from other “traditional” denominations, who over the last 40 years (for me personally, for nearly 30 years) have embraced what used to be considered the distinctive Pentecostal emphases, on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. True, many of us have rejected, as I think Packer did, the Pentecostal teaching about the necessity of a specific “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” experience evidenced by speaking in tongues. But we hold that such experiences and gifts are good and to be desired, and that these gifts should be used, with proper safeguards, in the life of the church.

This is of course a summary of what is known as the Charismatic Movement. Perhaps in some ways the movement is dead, as some have alleged. But if so, it is not because its distinctives have been abandoned, more because they have become more and more acceptable in the life of the church and are no longer charismatic or Pentecostal distinctives.

But these Pentecostal and charismatic distinctives have often been viewed with great suspicion by British Anglicans of the Oak Hill tradition who look up to Packer as one of their Christian heroes. Perhaps Packer can help to persuade them that the good things in the Pentecostal tradition are good for reviving not just Pentecostal churches in Africa and Asia but also Anglican churches in North America and Western Europe.

Anointing with oil

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I have just discovered Roger Mugs’ interesting pseudonymous blog theologer. Thanks to Nathan Stitt, another interesting new blogger, for the link.

Among Roger’s recent posts this one caught my eye: Anointed… with oil. Now anointing with oil for healing is something I take very seriously, so please don’t think that I am mocking the idea here. Like Roger, I have been blessed with being anointed with oil, as much as can be held on a finger. And I have done it myself a few times. Maybe sometime I will blog seriously about prayer ministry as practised in my church.

Nevertheless, as I commented on Roger’s blog, there is also a humorous side to anointing oil. A few days ago I was helping the lady in charge of our church prayer ministry find some olive oil in the church kitchen to refill the anointing oil bottles. But she complained that the oil we found wasn’t “Extra Virgin”. Sounds like something from Matthew 25:1-13, except that there the extra virgins were the ones looking for oil to refill their bottles.

But if you want to know what biblical anointing was like, read Psalm 133:2.

Not brains on a stick

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John Hobbins has made an interesting point, which many of you may not see because it is hidden underneath some Hebrew in a post on Psalm 100 which seems a bit heavy to digest on top of turkey and pumpkin pie on Thanksgiving day (not that I am eating them, but John is and no doubt most Americans are):

Verbal acclamation of יהוה [Yahweh, the LORD] was part of a kinesthetic act of worship. You shout. You whoop it up. You process into God’s presence. Hasidic Jews and charismatic Christians know this. Others approach worship as if they were brains on a stick.

Well, as I posted before I tend to be kinesthetic. That is surely why I don’t relate to worship which appeals to “brains on a stick”. And maybe that is part of why I love charismatic worship – but the other part is the presence of the Holy Spirit among the people of God.

Thanks, John, and enjoy your feast and the rest of your holiday!

Following the Wild Goose

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I just discovered an interesting post from Sally Coleman about Celtic Christianity. She manages to present this in a very attractive light. I’m not quite sure about how she uses it to build bridges to the pagan or neo-pagan community – but then I don’t think there are many of them around here, although there may be where Sally lives, nearly 100 miles north of me.

But I was especially struck by her picture of the Holy Spirit as a wild goose:

Continue reading →

Does the Gospel change our lives?

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This is the basic question to which Joe Dongell is trying to answer in a pair of lectures posted at Ben Witherington’s blog.

Too often the Christian message is presented along the lines that if we believe and/or do the right things now, everything will turn out all right for us after we die, but that we should not expect anything to happen to us before that. We should of course attempt to stop sinning and do good Christian things like going to church. But the only changes in our lives will be what we bring about ourselves; God does nothing for us, at least nothing which we can perceive, until the day of our death.

Dongell argues for a very different version of the Christian gospel, in which believers can expect God to act in their lives to make a real change in them. Continue reading →

The Caleb Generation

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The title of this post is in some ways an odd one because there was no Caleb generation, apart from Joshua and Caleb himself.

Of course Caleb did have a whole lot of contemporaries among the Israelites. But, apart from the probably much younger Joshua, they were very different people from Caleb. They grumbled and rebelled against Moses, and they were afraid to go into the Promised Land when God told them to, but presumed to try to go when God told them not to. Only Caleb and Joshua had the faith to go when God said “Go”, and to wait when he did not. As a result, God punished the entire generation, apart from those two, with early death.

And so, when the time came for the conquest of the land, Caleb, aged nearly 80 (see Joshua 14:7,10), was twenty years older than any of the other surviving Israelites, apart from Joshua. Yet Caleb was by no means ready to retire; five years into the conquest, at age 85, he could still say

I am still as strong today as the day Moses sent me out; I’m just as vigorous to go out to battle now as I was then.

Joshua 14:11 (TNIV)

It seems that the God who had caused all the other Israelites to die by age 60 had miraculously preserved Caleb’s health and strength for 45 years.

So it was perhaps a little strange that at Soul Survivor, which I came home from just over a week ago, Mike Pilavachi preached about the Caleb generation, about how we should have faith like Caleb did. Continue reading →