Message from Trevor Baker about Todd Bentley

I found today on the Revival Fires website the following message from Trevor Baker, who has worked closely with Todd Bentley and leads the Dudley outpouring meetings:

Open Response in regards to the Florida Outpouring

I know many of you will have heard of the breakdown of Todd and Shonnah Bentley’s marriage and that they have separated. This is very tragic in the light of all that Todd and Shonnah have given into the Outpouring.

It is now time to pour into their lives and their family, the grace and love that we all so eagerly desire.

Todd has withdrawn from public ministry while he seeks counsel and help from those he is accountable to. A meeting with Bill Johnson is planned when he returns from Australia. This will take place on 30-31 August. Do pray for the Holy Spirit to give clear counsel during this time.

There are areas of Todd’s life that have resulted in the breakdown of his marriage that he is willing to address. We now have both opportunity and responsibility to steward the Outpouring and see it increase. Bobby Conner prophesied that the further from the source we take this, the greater the flow would become.

Now it is time for us all to maintain the Outpouring and see it increase in our personal lives, our family, churches and communities where we minister.

I have been truly transformed by my association with the Outpouring and have seen an increase in healings, salvations in Dudley and a deepening of my dependence on Jesus to manifest His glory.

May we all continue to seek the grace and mercy for our own lives and also for Todd, Shonnah and their family, and the Fresh Fires Ministry.

I personally will uphold Todd through the difficulties he is encountering in his personal life. He remains a dear friend in ministry and I will continue to pray for his full restoration.

I believe the best days of the Outpouring are still ahead of us.

Blessings abundantly

Trevor Baker

Amen! It is good to hear that Todd is prepared to address at least some of the issues, and that he will be able to address them with the wise pastor Bill Johnson quite soon.

Certainly the Outpouring will continue in some way, in various places round the world, but we need to wait and see in what form. Meanwhile meetings continue in Dudley four nights a week, with various special events planned including a visit from the same Bill Johnson.

PS: Rupert Ward has posted some very perceptive comments about Todd and Shonnah:

They are the victims in this.  Willing, co-conspiring victims maybe.  But victims none-the-less.

Victims of the hype of the church; the tendency of the Body of Christ to idolise human beings.  The longing for God to move, which tragically means the Church lurches from one thing to the next, looking for the next big thing that God is doing.  I applaud the hunger, but not always the response to that hunger.

Although I suspect the seeds of this situation were sown in their marriage long before April this year, the pressure of nightly meetings, the criticism and scrutiny of the world (both Christian and non-Christian) and the internal battle form being in that kind of prominence and position that undoubtedly would have been raging within Bentley, must have stretched his family to breaking point.  I wonder how many marriages would survive?

I wouldn’t want to test mine in that cauldron of pressure and public glare.  My stones are firmly being left on the ground.

So tonight, as I write, fan or not, I feel God’s compassion towards Bentley, his family, and no-doubt the many people who will be disillusioned and hurt by another prominent failure of a Christian leader.  I feel God’s sadness that this has happened at all; that it was all so avoidable.  Not because Bentley didn’t have the right safeguards, or accountability.  But because the church doesn’t have to put that kind of pressure on people, to chase after the next big thing in the way we do, to set people up on pedestals that they can only fall from.

103 thoughts on “Message from Trevor Baker about Todd Bentley

  1. I thank God that in the midst of all this negative publicity about Todd and Shonnah, that there are people of compassion that will pray and stand in the gap. let us minister to the needs of this family at this time and warfare against the accuser(s) of the bretheren. I thank God that Trevor Baker sets a Christian example in upholding this man before the Father. I pray that I will follow this example and not be influenced by all the judgements that are being made, leaving God to be the judge.
    Baba

  2. I agree with Rubert Ward. Todd Bentley obviously had real “issues” long before the Outpouring began. I don’t want to excuse his behaviour… but I think it’s clear he couldn’t cope with the pressure of it all…

  3. Baba, thank you.

    Grace, do you think ANYONE could cope with the kind of pressure Todd was under? Certainly not without God’s help.

    Tim, thanks for the tip. Maggi certainly talks sense here and here, and she has even got a bishop to pray for Todd and Shonnah! This reminds me why I am still an Anglican and not a US-style evangelical.

  4. Thanks for the link Peter.
    I have found myself with very mixed feelings about the whole lakeland thing – a very different personal reaction to the Toronto stuff of the 90’s. In the UK, i think there is a much greater cultural barrier between the Bentley style than the John Arnott style. One of the things that concerns me, in my limited experience, is the very uncritical and uncontextualised acceptance of Lakeland within the UK. I think we need to have a long look at ourselves, especially in light of the current revelations, at our discernment and bandwagon jumping.

  5. Rupert, thanks for your comment. But I do tend to feel that the very negative reaction of many to Todd was primarily about the cultural barrier than about genuine spiritual discernment. Many of those who claimed to have discernment are now saying “I told you so”, but in fact as far as I know none of them did discern anything wrong with Todd’s marriage – even the ones who claim with hindsight that this was obvious from some of the videos. Anyway I would insist that marriage problems are not at all connected with doctrinal errors or dubious methods – although they might explain why towards the end there were some signs of Todd floundering, because he was not as close to God as he had been when all this started.

  6. Peter – i totally agree about not linking TB’s marriage and the ministry ethos, style and theology. I think anyone who stands before God’s people, does so dependent on God’s grace, aware that we are broken people. That must go for TB. That’s is why, in my opinion, we shouldn’t be throwing stones at him for his marriage breakdown. We can’t say this has happened because of his theology, nor because his style is not our cup of tea.

    My point is slightly different. I wonder how much the immediate desire to “jump in” to the outpouring has exacerbated the issues that were probably already there for the Bentley’s. This all happened with undue haste, in my opinion, by GodTV’s uncritical stance and decision to show every night. There was no time to wait, discern, test, see the good, chuck out the bad…

    Toronto took 6 months or more to arrive in Edinburgh (where i am). That gave the leaders of the “movement” a little more time to process what was happening, get other leaders on board, sort through a little theology and practice etc. Even then, the movement was pretty immature when we first experienced that “wave”. 2 years later, we understood a lot more, handled it better, it had diversified etc.

    Although John Arnott was a facilitator, it was never dependent on him, in the way that it seems that TB has become. So my question is, in what way has the response of the church around the world pushed the Bentley’s the place they find themselves now?

    I think i have post brewing on the difference between lakeland and toronto!

  7. Rupert, I agree that there was too much of the personality cult made of the whole thing.

    It is worth remembering that Todd was by no means new to God TV. They knew their man, they knew that he had been endorsed in advance by John Arnott, Bill Johnson etc. So maybe they were not as uncritical as you suggest. Nevertheless they did end up putting a lot of pressure on Todd which he could not take.

    I wonder why Todd returned to Lakeland so quickly in July. Could he have been persuaded by God TV who saw audiences dropping when he took a break? At the time I was concerned about his family, and it seems I was right to be. Or was the real reason for Todd’s return that he was already emotionally attached to a woman in Florida? I can only speculate. But it seems to me that things went wrong sometime between when I last watched Todd on 26th June and his return to Lakeland in mid-July.

  8. Whilst I have been critical of the goings on in Lakeland, I have no joy in the mess that has emerged… there are people including children involved… that on it’s own means we should all pray for those involved, friends, family, those who have been hurt etc.

    However, that said, it does not negate the questions for those (Arnott, Johnson, Che Ann etc.) who claimed to be holding Bentley accountable and God TV, who have perhaps more than anyone “reaped” financial reward from supporting Bentley… Note that John Kilpatrick’s (Pensecola) concerns…

    “in the very early stages of revival, I went to visit Todd Bentley in Lakeland, FL. My purpose was to champion revival, and I had great hope that it would be one that would sweep the world. At that time, I didn’t know much about Todd or his doctrine, but had some concern. Over the last two months, it has become a major concern to me.”

    where ignored and that Strader (Ingite) says…

    “Three years ago, he did the exact same thing. He grew out of his relationship to his wife and transferred his affection to another. That’s the biggest frustration with us.” The clues where there! But the people with the ability to do anything about it didn’t!

  9. Mark, have you seen the answers which John Arnott, Bill Johnson, Peter Wagner and Che Ahn have already been giving to these questions? Have you looked for them? Some of them were aware of the concerns, and they have been doing something about them. I intend to post about this.

  10. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » Todd Bentley’s Apostolic Oversight Team in Action

  11. Jman, I am deleting your comment as gratuitously libellous. If you can provide some evidence e.g. a URL for your claims about a PR firm, I will allow you to post a link to that.

  12. Sidefall, I missed your comment earlier, but now realise I must delete it as well, as libellous. If the accusations you make are indeed “from people on the inside”, please provide your evidence.

  13. Peter,

    I think you took issue with this line of mine:

    “Quite apart from his false teaching etc, he’s (Todd’s) a drunkard, serial adulterer, and a pathological liar with a history of hype and embellishment (and that’s all come from people on the inside).”

    So here’s my evidence from people on the inside:

    Drunkard/Adulterer – John Arnott said at http://www.tacf.org/tacforghome/Visitors/LakelandToddBentleyUpdate/tabid/761/Default.aspx

    “Furthermore, it has now come out that there has been some inappropriate behavior, both with excessive drinking and also with a female member of his staff.

    Pathological liar – Robert Ricciardelli said at http://www.injesus.com/index.php?module=message&task=view&MID=7B007F30&GroupID=ZA0072M2

    “When we questioned staff members, and former staff members about Todd, many used the same words to describe him, Pathological Liar. These lies in the guise of ministry and Todd’s behind the scenes lifestyle…”

    Hype and embellishment – Ricciardelli again at http://stevehickey.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/florida-healing-outpouring-todd-bentley-violence-and-the-kingdom-of-god/#comment-380 (you also commented there)

    “We have investigated the 20 plus “raised from the dead” claims as we want to report them to the media, and they cannot be verified, but were only called in, or sent in from an email. This is not repsonsible reporting, and leaves many questions, which also adds to the claims of hype and embellishment.

    Serial adulterer – it’s been widely reported that Todd also had another extra-marital relationship about three years ago, the fall-out from which was covered up as a “sabbatical”. The first Ricciardelli link alludes to this further down, but I don’t have an explicity inside reference to hand. I’m sure I can find one if you really want.

    John Arnott is obviously one of the “apostles” sent to oversee Todd and is an insider; Robert Ricciardelli is also one of Peter Wagner’s “apostles” and very much on the inside, being in contact with Steven Strader of Ignited Church. Here’s some more from him which includes another lie from Todd.

    From http://charismamag.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=50001&sid=a7532a84317d48486894b16f0612c040#p50001 (emphasis mine)

    “In early June, I think on the 6th Todd gave an offering message that was manipulation and borderline witchcraft. He said the Lord told Him that there were 1000 people who were going to give $1000 and if they were obedient, the Lord said they would receive 1000 fold return. I am in almost daily conversation with Stephen Strader, and challenged him that it was not from God. He agreed and talked to Todd. Todd admitted that he worded it wrong, but that it was an idea he had to raise money for the 30,000 seat revival center they want to build. I then asked if he would repent publicly and they said no because the crowd changes every night.”

    I rest my case!

  14. Peter,

    I’m not sure if I’m on moderation – I submitted a response to your comment 88383 which included detailed inside evidence with links, but it hasn’t appeared.

    Please advise – having challenged me to produce evidence, I hope you’ll have the grace to publish it here now that I have.

  15. Peter – thanks for your response (87904). Good points about God TV knowing Bentley. So they did know their man, as you say. But I think there is a huge difference between screening some sessions from a conference, and nightly life screening of a “revival” with the emphasis they put on the whole show. I can’t imagine what kind of pressure that put on Bentley, and i am deeply uncomfortable with the media (albeit Christian) driving something like this. As i don’t doubt Bentley’s sincerity or love for Jesus, i am sure the Alec’s were equally sincere and passionate, but i do question the wisdom.

  16. Sidefall, I’m sorry but your comment 88803 was caught as spam. I have now retrieved it from the spam box. I will allow it because it does claim to give evidence. But I think you are going well beyond the evidence in the accusations you are making. See how you have exaggerated:

    Arnott: “excessive drinking” with no indication that this was habitual (and a Pentecostal pastor may call any alcohol consumption “excessive”) > Sidefall: “drunkard” implying something habitual.

    Arnott: “inappropriate behavior… with a female member of his staff” (note: ONE female member of staff); Fresh Fire Ministries (15th August) “on an emotional level”; some gossip with no source or details given about a previous relationship > Sidefall: “serial adulterer”.

    The article at injesus.com which you attribute to Robert Ricciardelli: this article is in fact anonymous and unattributed, but this link to a copy of it does seem to confirm its authorship. But the part you quote is gossip from Todd’s former staff members. You are passing on this gossip, which is listed in Romans 1:29-32 as a sin deserving death. Ricciardelli should have shared his concerns privately with his fellow “apostles” and the Fresh Fire board, not publicly.

    As for Todd’s appeal for money “not from God”, if every pastor who appealed for money without explicitly being told by God to do so were forced out of ministry for “manipulation and borderline witchcraft”, there wouldn’t be many churches left open in America!

    I agree with you that Todd has sinned in various ways, and that he needed to step down from his ministry as he has done until he can be restored. Exaggerating what has happened makes you, not him, look ridiculous.

    Rupert, I agree with you.

  17. He said the Lord told Him that there were 1000 people who were going to give $1000 and if they were obedient, the Lord said they would receive 1000 fold return.

    Peter – the point was Todd told the crowd, and the millions at home, that he has been told by God.

    And later admitted he hadn’t.

    The issue being commented on is not requiring every pastor to hear from God before asking for money, that is irrelevant.

    But rather someone claiming to have heard God when they ask for money then later admiting that they had not heard from God, if that report is true.

  18. If the facts are as reported (I have seen variant versions of this, and it is interesting that Ricciardelli didn’t give a Youtube clip of this one) Todd was indeed wrong. Probably he genuinely believed that God had told him this, but on reflection after the event, and failure to get the money, he realised that he had misheard, that like everyone else who claims to hear from God his hearing was not perfect. That is far more credible than that he was deliberately lying, and the accusation of “borderline witchcraft” is ridiculous. I agree it would have been helpful for him to admit this error publicly.

    Ricciardelli is also a liar, or at least he made a statement which is not true and evidence of this was available, when here he wrote, on 23rd July and an hour before the post which Sidefall quoted, that the man in this Youtube video “did not get healed”. This man testified, on 13th July so before Ricciardelli wrote, that he was partially healed. Ricciardelli had clearly already lost the plot by making false assumptions about Todd’s ministry.

  19. Peter,

    Just quickly, I have a reference for my claim of serial adultery.

    See http://www.theledger.com/article/20080818/NEWS/1280971

    Strader said Bentley’s relationship with the staffer was the second time he has jeopardized his marriage.

    “Three years ago, he did the exact same thing. He grew out of his relationship to his wife and transferred his affection to another. That’s the biggest frustration with us. The bottom line is that he was traveling too much and not taking care of his wife and family like he should,” he said.

    Strader is an insider, and I don’t think it is an exaggeration to describe two extra-marital relationships in three years as serial adultery.

  20. Sidefall, thanks for letting me know about this article. It is good to see Strader’s take on this, even as filtered through the secular press.

    Strader says only that Bentley “transferred his affection to another”, and that, although wrong, is not the same thing as adultery. As the same article reminds us the recent relationship is “on an emotional level”, and there is no reason to think that the previous one was any different. And even if it was, that would be one case of adultery, whereas the recent case as reported is not. So this is not “serial adultery”.

  21. Peter, can we at least call a spade a spade? In the eyes of God and according to the words of Jesus, which you and I both believe in, having an extra-marital emotional or affectionate relationship is adultery.

    I also suspect that we are not getting the full story and more revelations about Todd’s infidelity have yet to emerge…

  22. Sidefall, that is a different matter. But see my exegetical discussion about adultery in comments here. What Todd is known to have done is sinful and wrong, but it is not technically adultery, neither literally nor what Jesus referred to as “adultery in his heart”. This is not a spade but a different garden tool, so let’s not confuse things by calling it a spade.

  23. What has happened to Todd Bentley’s marriage is sad but for me this is the fruit growing from the tree including very good evidence here of his dishonesty.

    He does minister healing through angels, Dr Greig’s theological article defends the fact at point 8.
    Anyone linking themselves into Branham and Cain are going to have problems. I have gone to great theological lengths to evidence this under the ‘Angel called Emma’ blog.

    The Lord is merciful but he does draw a line. He removed his Holy Spirit from King Saul, yet forgave King David. Judas Iscariot did all the same miracles as the other disciples but continued to steal money from the money bag which made him spiritually blind. We need to be dealing with sin in our lives and not excusing it.

    Yes, we all fall short but there should be some spiritual growth (fruit) in our lives after we have been a christian for many years as has Todd Bentley. My husband was into the occult and lied constantly before he was a christian 20 years ago but he is a completely different person today.

    I know Peter that you believe the LOrd has told you that Todd Bentley is from him but the evidence seems to point in another direction. I think this is why you seem to so blindly defend Todd although you do regulate things well where people have exagerated.

  24. Peter,

    I’ve looked at the blog you referenced, and I have to say that you’ve probably forgotten more Hebrew and Greek than I’ve ever known!

    Assuming your exegesis is correct, then yes, I should have said that Todd has “twice cheated on his wife” rather than he is a “serial adulterer”. But I’d rather use two words than five, and most people would regard the two statements as being similar.

    However, it’s worth noting the latest communication from Peter Wagner (which I won’t link to as I think this is what causes my posts to get spam-filtered), which says,

    “He (Todd) has no intention at the moment of reconciling with Shonna, nor does she with him. Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands. Enough said – maybe more details will be revealed later – but it was clearly immoral.”

    (You can easily find this via Google).

    I accept that this wasn’t in the public domain when I did my earlier posts, but I’m not sure there is any point in engaging in Bill Clinton style doublespeak here. I think most people (Shonnah included) would say that Todd committed adultery, although I will accept that we don’t know that he did it with both the women he had relationships with.

  25. Sidefall, please can you give me a URL so I can check out the genuineness of this quotation, complete with mis-spelling of Todd’s wife’s name. From Google I can only find it quoted on this hostile blog by Antagoniz, which also fails to give a source. I have contacted the Wagners’ Global Harvest Ministries asking them to confirm the genuineness of this statement, and of the earlier one by Doris Wagner.

    I can’t help wondering if what Antagoniz posts is a genuine and unedited statement. The latter part of it certainly has the look of genuineness. My concern is with the first part of it, which has been edited at least to remove the paragraph breaks. Just a few sentences look as if they may be hostile interpolations, out of place among the carefully restrained comments of this senior apostolic figure.

    The latter part of the statement, which I take as genuine, is certainly a significant report of the efforts being taken to move ahead in this situation.

  26. Peter,

    I don’t think there is an “original” version on the net as I think it was sent out by email only.

    However, if you Google the first line, which I didn’t quote but is “I was in the San Francisco airport on my way to Singapore” (include the quotes so it does an exact phrase search), you’ll get a few hits, and if you click the link at the bottom to bring up the omitted similar results you’ll get a lot more.

    Most are from hostile bloggers but some (eg you’ll find it on InJesus.com) appears friendly.

    I’m aware that it can be difficult to find verifiable sources for things like this. But even the hostile bloggers are honorable and wouldn’t fabricate something, but there is of course the chance that they would be deceived by a hoax.

  27. Thank you, Sidefall. A search now leads to enough different links from various sources that I am prepared to accept that this is a genuine statement, although I would still like confirmation from Wagner’s own site.

    As I wrote on another thread, I wonder if Wagner has genuine inside information about Todd, whom he hardly knows, and is authorised to reveal it, or if he is simply believing more than he should from hostile sources.

  28. I think its time that we all put our stones down and take along good look at our very own lives. Leave the rest to God. For he who is without sin let him cast the next stone.

  29. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » Peter and Doris Wagner on Todd Bentley

  30. …for me at this time it is much more important to be using discernment than worrying about throwing stones.
    The Bible calls us to use discernment and the church in Ephesus was commended for it

    that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. Rev 2:2-3

    On top of that we are in the last days and the Bible says:
    …..false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect — if that were possible. Mark 13:21-22

    I think the least of our worries is that Todd Bentley has fallen from grace. What I am most worried about is that Todd Bentley and the people who support him, Paul Cain, Bob Jones (Kansas City Prophets) etc are all into Latter Rain theology and that this is designed to hi-jack the charismatic movement into Latter Rain.
    When I said that Todd Bentley’s falling from grace is the fruit, I meant it was also the fruit of false theology.
    Just as we have Paul Cain (right at the beginning of this video) claiming he is celibate when we know he

    was caught out as a practising homosexual as evidenced below.
    Although we can all slip up and mess up I believe this is more insiduous because it is the end result of his false doctrine.
    http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c06.html

    Here is an interesting report from Don Clasen who was one of the deacons in the Kansas City Prophet’s church written in March 2002. It is rather a long read though
    http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-metro1.htm

    Back as late as 1992 the Kansas City Prophets were under discipline due to Ernie Gruen’s Report. http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

    I am beginning to wonder if my whole basis of faith is wrong. As someone who was involved in Toronto I now wonder if it did make me a better Christian.

    Yes, I felt good feelings (God’s love?) and felt motivated to spend more time seeking him but did this result in me loving people more (the real test) through good works and being full of the fruit of the spirit. I don’t think it did.

    I wonder if when we worship the Lord and feel that we are in his presence (maybe we are maybe we’ere not) whether we decieve ourselves into thinking we are loving him (because of gooey feelings) when the real test is obedience to his commandments aswell as the fruit of the spirit. I was surprised to find that Budhists get similar feelings when they are prayed for.

    I speak as somone who attends a charismatic anglican Christ Church, Roxeth Hill, Harrow that has strong links with St Andrews, Chorleywood.
    I have just read your site Peter where you recently went to receive the annointing that Dudley had received from Florida. Do you feel that this has resulted in you obeying God more or just in having good loving feelings (God’s presence?). Or do you think that you have grown in the fruit of the spirit (love, joy, peace, patience etc) and obedience to God as a result ? This would include good works to my mind as this is a major way we show people that we love them.
    The other subtle sin that can grow if the wrong people are laying hands on us (which I was guilty of when I was in an AOG church) is spiritual and / or moral pride which is very subtle !!

  31. Dear Sidefall

    Although I’m not exactly a fan of Bently I didn’t like your reference to him as a ‘serial adulterer’. This is so open to interpretation and is very inflamatory.

    I would rather have five words that give me an accurate report than two which are just giving me the peron’s opinion without the facts. It is these kind of comments that undermine the critics of Bentley and the whole cause.

    However, I am grateful to you for your links to various sites. There is evidence of him lying about when he got his tattoos in the link below, although the links to the charlotte newspaper have gone away but I have seen them personally before they did.

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/why-is-todd-bentley-lying-to-the-media-about-his-tattoos/

  32. Julie, as I think I have written before there are two possible explanations of Todd’s words reported in the Charlotte newspaper “Most of the tattoos I have gotten have (before becoming a Christian).” One is that the words in brackets here were supplied by a reporter based on a misunderstanding of what Todd actually meant. The other is that he referred to the possible large number of hidden tattoos on his body, in contrast to the smaller number of more visible tattoos which seem to be more recent. Since these are possible explanations I think we ought to give Todd the benefit of the doubt on this matter until he can be questioned more carefully on it. I am sure that these are the kinds of matters which his apostolic overseers are dealing with.

  33. Hi Peter

    I didn’t see your blog about his tattoos. I will look into this.

    I think my comment before this was caught in the spam filter. Its about the fact that I’m more worried about all of Todd Bentley’s supporters being involved in Latter Rain and that this is hi-jacking the charismatic movement.

  34. Julie, I retrieved comment 91668 from the moderation queue. I don’t know why it went there.

    I think you need to ask yourself whether you are right to align yourself with the “discernment” and “apologetics” crowd who spew out hatred and exaggerated accusations against respected Christian leaders, past and present. Does your involvement with them “make [you] a better Christian”? Does it “result in [you] loving people more (the real test) through good works and being full of the fruit of the spirit”? Or does it in fact tend to fill you with some of the antithesis to the fruit of the Spirit, e.g. “hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions and envy”, found in Galatians 5:19-21?

    In retrospect it is hard for me to say exactly what the long term effect has been of the “anointing” I received at Dudley. This summer has been a bit of a roller-coaster ride for me in various ways, and has not gone as well spiritually and otherwise as I was hoping when I returned from Dudley. But I do believe that I have grown in obedience to God and in the fruit of the Spirit, although I have a long way still to go.

  35. Julie,

    I’ve just noticed your comment 91709 to me. I accept that “serial adulterer” may not have been the best choice of words in hindsight, and I agree that accuracy in reporting is needed. Assuming that all the facts we’ve been told are true, Todd has had two extra-marital relationships in three years, and at least one of those involved something more kissing and was described as “immoral”.

    Peter,

    In response to your comment 92416, which I realise was addressed to Julie, I personally do not align with the apologetics or discernment crowd and don’t agree with some of their approaches.

    By way of balance, I’d like to give an example of a “good” apologetics ministry, which is the Reachout Trust. I can commend their work, which includes evangelism, training and education, as well as discernment. Their focus is very much on reaching members of cults and other religions with the gospel – they do not just find fault with other Christians. I should point out that I have no connection with them and I’m not even on their mailing list. I also emailed them once when I found something on their web site that I disagreed with!

    I would, however, suggest that there are very serious problems in much of contemporary charismatic christianity (probably far more so in the USA than the UK), and many high-profile figures have serious issues with either their beliefs or their methods. They may be considered as “respected Christian leaders” by some, but to others they are false teachers who are leading the flock astray, the wolves among the sheep that we are told to guard against.

    Even in your own Anglican church, I am sure there are many respected leaders that you have major problems with.

    Discernment and correction has to be done in the right spirit – the Bible says Jesus was full of grace and truth, but many Christians have all the truth and none of the grace. I’m sure we can both agree that these are needed more than ever in the current situation.

  36. Thank you, Sidefall. I have had some contact with Reachout Trust, e.g. for what they had to say about Michael Reid, and would not put them in the same bracket as the rabidly anti-Todd Bentley sites. Their article about Todd is well balanced although I think ultimately a little too negative.

    I realise that there are many problems in almost every part of the church, and that wherever one looks one person’s “respected leader” is someone else’s “false teacher”! I suppose Billy Graham is about the only living Christian who commands respect from more or less everyone.

    Indeed we all need grace and truth!

  37. Peter,

    I’m glad think Reachout aren’t too bad.

    I’m afraid that even Billy Graham is disliked by some, particularly old-school fundamentalists in the USA, but also some UK conservative evangelicals. Whilst they have a number of issues with him, I’d say his ecumenical approach and Arminian theology are the main things that draw criticism.

  38. Its amazing that the pressure of ministry can lead you into adultery! David wasn’t under pressure, in fact it was his lazy attitude that led him to look on a woman when he should have been at war and not sleeping all day.!

    Lets stop trying to excuse sin, sin is a willful breaking of God’s commands!

    That’s what Todd is guilty of – just as I have been guilty of sin in the same manner.

  39. Mark, who is trying to excuse sin? Certainly not me. There is no evidence that Trevor is, just that he is not throwing around accusations concerning which he has no first hand evidence. But I am trying to give Todd an opportunity to repent and be restored, which is entirely biblical.

  40. Peter, I have just discovered this site whilst researching the origins of the charismatic movement. My research having been prompted I believe by the Holy Spirit to check out not only the recent claims of christians supporting/decrying the recent happenings at Lakeland but to uncover, bring into the light and reject all the false teaching which the Church has over the centuries been rife with. Much of which still pollutes and defiles the body of Christ in all its many denominations despite the multitude of genuine, loyal and fervent seekers of truth throughout the ages.

    The Bible warns us that if possible even the very elect may be deceived and that the tares grow up with the wheat. The apostle Peter himself was open to speaking with a wrong spirit and was openly rebuked by Jesus for doing so. Just a little extra proof of how important it is to personally exercise discernment, test everthing with scripture and to pray for the body of Christ to receive a spirit of wisdom, revelation and discernment and for it not be led into temptation or deceived.

    However my main purpose for entering into this discussion is in response to the comment you made in 88948 about most pastors asking for money without God telling them to. I hardly think that is a comment which defends anyone! On the contrary it only adds to the weight of evidence against all men who feel it right to pedal the word of God for money and twist the scripture to induce a monetary response from those who hear. They are no better than the catholic priests of the middle ages who sold indulgences.

    Is it not written “Freely you have received, so freely give”?

  41. Hilary, I am not defending any pastor who asks for money without God telling him to. I am just commenting that this is probably true of at least 90% of pastors in America and (although typical methods are very different) here in the UK.

    I don’t mean to suggest that all of those pastors are greedy or self-serving, any more than Todd. Rather, they are aware of the huge financial needs but are not sufficiently closely in touch with God to understand his way of raising the money, which I don’t think includes manipulative appeals or constantly badgering congregations – or appealing to the outside community which is far too common here in England and contributes to a widespread understanding that the church is only interested in getting people’s money.

  42. peter K
    What this has all led to us a widespread understanding not that the church is only interested in peoples money but that certain preachers are
    This has done more to damage the testimony of Jesus thanks to the God channel or is the the Tod channel than anything else recently as it was broadcast to so many nations

    The issue with Todd Bentley is not that his marriage has broken down but that he was in total error

    He refused to repent for trying to manipulate people to give £ 1000 he refuses to repent for preaching error
    He will not repent for his sin as all those around him seek to bring him back into some kind of ministry

    we need to call sin sin
    repentance is the only cure not some kind of apostolic alignment whatever that is
    and then he needs to take a back seat
    as does Bob Jones and the rest of these heretics

    Peter Jenkins
    peter jenkins

  43. Peter J, I do not defend Todd for asking for money in this way. But what he asked is trivial compared with what is matter of course among many TV preachers.

    Todd has not “refused to repent” for anything, but has indicated an intention “to make a clear statement about [the present situation], acknowledging his responsibility in this and the mistakes he made”, after he has had the chance to consult with those with pastoral responsibility for him. Wouldn’t you advise one of your congregation members who fell into sin to talk to you before making public statements?

    Did you see this comment and this one in reply to your previous ones? I would like to see your response. The first one starts with a very genuine question, which perhaps I should not have distracted you from with an inappropriate comment about your former church.

  44. ….my last comment has ended up in the spam filter I think again.

    Anyway, I’ve just realised the full extent of another comment you made at 92416

    Your Comment
    I think you need to ask yourself whether you are right to align yourself with the “discernment” and “apologetics” crowd who spew out hatred and exaggerated accusations against respected Christian leaders, past and present. Does your involvement with them “make [you] a better Christian”? fruit of the spirit etc

    My Comment
    I am not aligning myself with anyone. I am seeking the truth Peter. I know because of Todd Bentleys alignment with Branham, Paul Cain who are all into false Latter Rain theology that there is something wrong.

    What I am worried about is ending up with an impartation of bad spirits from people who are false because my church has embraced this.

    Asking you how you had been effected was a genuine question because of my fear about what is really going on here.

    Have you read Pastor Earie Gruen’s blue book about the Kansas City Prophets from the early 1990’s. So many people have been hurt by them that he felt he had to make a stand. This has been in the public domain a while and is well documented.

    http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

    So yes it does help because I am working out where they are coming from. If I have an impartation that is not of the Lord because I embrace this without researching it, it will seriously hinder me growing in the fruit of the spirit.

    From where I am sitting you do not seem to be impartial but to be wearing Todd Bentley glasses that lets him off the hook for everything.

  45. Julie, there are no comments of yours in my spam filter. But you are confusing yourself as well as me by commenting on several different posts of mine. See this reply to you and this one.

    I know because of Todd Bentleys alignment with Branham, Paul Cain who are all into false Latter Rain theology that there is something wrong.

    No, Julie, you do not know this, because your premise is false, or at least highly dubious. This is disinformation put about by the “discernment” and “apologetics” crowd, who in fact have an agenda to discredit the entire charismatic movement. Neither Branham nor Cain was/is into Latter Rain theology. They may have some links to it but there is no evidence that they hold to its more extreme teachings.

    Does intotruth.org have the author’s permission to transcribe and post Gruen’s copyrighted work on the Internet?

  46. Hi Peter

    Interesting reply, quite helpful. I will go back and do some more research.

    Don’t know about the copyright issue. I would have to ask them unless you want to. As it was circulated to so many ministers I would think it would be ok.

    Kind Regards

    Julie S

  47. Well, Julie, it is not permitted to put someone else’s work on the Internet without their permission, until they have been dead for 70 years (to simplify a complex legal argument), unless they have explicitly stated that they are putting the work in the public domain. This is one example of the “end justifies the means” attitude of these “discernment” people, which I mentioned in my previous post (which I hope you have seen as you are mentioned in it), which indicates how fundamentally anti-Christian they are.

  48. Hi Peter

    How would you describe ‘The discernment and apologetics crowd’. Are they a group of people held together by a specific belief e.g that the foundations of the Charismatic movement are false.
    If they are held by a common theology can you say what that is in a nutshell (e.g Calvinistic / Armenian ?)

    or would you say that this is any person who does not agree with what happened say at Florda with Todd Bentley.

  49. Hi Peter

    I didn’t make myself clear about the copyright of Earnie Gruen’s blue book and it being published on the web. What I meant was, how do we know that they didn’t have permission to publish it.

    Obviously it is not in the public domain yet as its not 70 years old yet.

  50. Hi Peter

    You have been very damning about this copyright issue over Earnest Gruen’s blue book (Expose of KCPs) before you had the facts at hand.

    Yet you let Todd Bentley off at every opportunity which makes me wonder what your agenda is?

    I have looked into the copyright issue and according to them they do have permission from the original author. The front of the document says so. There is also copyright info at the back of the document from them giving permission to send electronic links to it.

    Ernest Gruen’s Blue Book – Expose of Kansas City Prophets in the 1990s.
    http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

    You also maintain that the Kansas City Prophets do not hold to the extremes of the Latter Rain Teaching.
    Well according to Don Clasen (Link below) who was a deacon in the Kansas City Prophets for 8 years, he came to the conclusion that they were teaching this although trying to pretend they were not.

    Extreme Latter Rain believes we can completely rule and reign now through super apostles and prophets. The Kansas City Prophets believe they are these.
    This is a long read with 4 sections to it but is well worth it.
    http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-metro1.htm

    Although the Blue book is written in the early 1990s and Don Clasen’s document was written in 2002 I see no signs of repenting.

    For example you have Paul Cain who was caught as a practising homosexual a couple of years ago (aged 70), standing up on stage and saying he has been celibate all his life. Not sure when this video is dated but it seems to be recent as he is on the stage with Todd Bentley.
    Whether he claimed celibacy before he was caught out on the homosexual issue or after it is still not good.

    Then you have the article from Todd Bentley’s web site about the End Times Joel’s army which is definitely ‘extreme’ Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teaching.
    End Time Joel’s Army

    I am a Charismatic, have been all my Christian life but I believe the Kansas City Prophets and the like are trying to introduce heresy into it.

  51. Julie, thanks for clarifying this point about copyright, for answering the question which I asked in comment 101574, on the basis that the page I looked at didn’t mention permission. I only asked a question, and corrected your false statement “As it was circulated to so many ministers I would think it would be ok.” How is that “very damning”?

    I can’t really make any general statements about “The discernment and apologetics crowd”. There are certainly quite a lot of people who are unscrupulous in how they condemn charismatics. Others concentrate on condemning supposed liberals. There may be people with a similar general approach who target Calvinists etc. So it would not be fair to link this approach with any particular theology.

    I need to look more into what the Kansas City Prophets actually teach. When I have time I will look at what Clasen has to say, but only after I have read what they themselves are saying. I don’t defend Paul Cain who seems to have been less than completely truthful about his homosexual activities. It may not be entirely coincidental that days later he fell seriously ill with a stroke.

    Please give me the link to the alleged “definitely ‘extreme’ Latter Rain Manifest Sons of God teaching” on “Todd Bentley’s website” (actually I don’t think he has one, do you mean the website of Fresh Fire which used to employ him?)

  52. Thanks for quickly posting that link.

    But I don’t see any false teaching here. I agree that the idea that everyone will be healed is a controversial one, and there is perhaps some wishful thinking presented as prophecy, but no heresy. This Joel’s Army is of course supposed to be all Christians, at least all who will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and use his gifts – so no elitism!

    I’m sure Deere’s words “…they won’t be able to kill this army”, in context, don’t imply individual immortality, just that the army as a whole cannot be defeated.

    Interesting in the light of allegations about Lakeland that Todd’s number 1 point is “There will be a renewed focus on the message repentance”.

  53. Hi Peter

    I didn’t mean damning of me but of your critics (which I suppose I qualify aswell 😉 )

    Because you are actually condemning the web site that produced Ernie Gruen’s blue book before you had the facts and then called them anti-Christian. This makes you no better than the critics you are criticising !!

    Your Comment
    This is one example of the “end justifies the means” attitude of these “discernment” people, which I mentioned in my previous post which indicates how fundamentally anti-Christian they are.

    Rightly you say, you need to look into the whole Latter Rain thing more (I do too) before commenting but you were willing to condemn the ‘blue book’ site before you had the facts. You didn’t even bother looking into it after I said we needed to find out !!

    One of the reasons I have started to question the whole Charismatic movement is because of Tricia Tillin’s history of it from 1950. She would class herself as a Charismatic (or she did then)

    This links the roots of the charismatic movement as being from Branham’s preacher Ernie Baxter. Ernie Baxter discerned that things were not right with Branham and left him but he did take his extreme ‘Latter Rain’ teaching with him. It seems that the whole charismatic movement stems from this because his influence was so wide through Keswick & other conventions. See part 3.

    History of Charismatic church part 1 (1950 onwards)
    http://www.intotruth.org/res/restuk1.html
    Part 3
    http://www.intotruth.org/res/restuk3.html

  54. Hi Peter

    Yes, I have to say on reading Todd Bentley’s article on Joel’s army. I found it a bit vague.

    The end times Joel’s army is part of extreme latter rain teaching but I’m not sure he particularly embodies it here very well. So I posted it as a link but it is not a very good example.

    There are alot of recent links out there connecting Todd Bentley and KCPs to ‘Extreme Latter Rain’ but I need to research their source.

    One of things I do want to research as I read this somewhere. That what the KCPs actually believe is that everyone has to come under the rule of their super apostles and prophets otherwise they are considered apostate !!!

    In Earnest Gruen’s blue book there are examples of them prophesying to churches to come under their leadership or close down. However I need to find proper evidence of the former point to link it to this one.

  55. Well, Julie, perhaps I was too quick to be negative about the critics you quoted. In the sentence I quoted I was assuming, wrongly, that they were relying on what you had suggested, a false claim that no permission was needed. It was you, not me, who were condemning them by making this suggestion, although you did later retract it. Since my condemning comment was based on this retracted information, I also retract my comment. I didn’t look into it further because you offered to, writing “I would have to ask them unless you want to.”

    But that was not the only negative thing I picked up. There was something about their tone that just seemed so anti-Christian, but I can’t put my finger on anything. But I do not accept that asking probing questions is the same as “condemning”. If these people confined themselves to asking probing questions about Todd Bentley, I would have no problem with them, but they are quick to assume the worst without asking the questions, and then denounce him on the basis of it – and the same for Peter Wagner etc etc.

    Thanks for the links to Tillin’s article. I have skimmed this, especially Part 3. I note in Part 3:

    While neither of these men took on board the more heretical excesses of Latter Rain doctrine, they did imbibe enough to form a new doctrine of the restoration of the Church in the endtimes, the government of apostles and prophets, and the role of the “overcomers” in bringing in the Kingdom on earth.

    While this eschatology may be debatable, I hardly see it as heretical. But Tillin seems to simply assume that this is absolutely wrong. Strange that the name of T. Austin Sparkes came up as I had never heard of him until yesterday when I read Frank Viola citing him with approval. But there does seem to be an assumption here that any link with Latter Rain churches even at third hand discredits a ministry. Like most charismatic leaders today, including Derek Prince who listed this as one of his mistakes, I reject “Shepherding” – as you might expect from someone who likes Frank Viola’s approach. But in the end I must completely differ from Tillin because she considers to be a malign infection and deception the Restoration movement which I believe to be the great move of the Holy Spirit in our time. She should beware of the sin against the Holy Spirit.

    Maybe the extreme Latter Rain teachers taught some wrong things about Joel’s Army. That does not mean that anyone who teaches anything about Joel’s Army is wrong.

    You indeed need to find proper evidence that the KCPs actually said what you said, that churches not under their control are apostate, although if they are heretical for saying this then so are the bishops of the Roman Catholic church among others.

  56. Hi Peter

    Your comment 103156
    [In the sentence I quoted I was assuming, wrongly, that they were relying on what you had suggested, a false claim that no permission was needed. It was you, not me, who were condemning them by making this suggestion,

    although you did later retract it. Since my condemning comment was based on this retracted information, I also retract my comment. I didn’t look into it further because you offered to, writing “I would have to ask them unless you want to.”]

    I don’t understand what you are talking about I didn’t retract anything.

    My comment at 102425
    Don’t know about the copyright issue. I would have to ask them unless you want to.
    As it was circulated to so many ministers I would think it would be ok.

    I make it clear in the above statement that I don’t know about the copyright and I suggest that one of us asks them.
    I do then make the throw away comment about I can’t see what the harm is but I don’t know how you get from that, – that they were relying on what I had suggested !!! Then to get from that, that I am condemning them !!

    That is why I then make the statement below because I am surprised at the speed at which you are saying what you are.

    At 102775 I say
    Have I missed something? How do you know that this article is not in the public domain.

    I then qualify it at 102775 because I am a bit ambiguous in how I’m explaining myself. It can’t be in the public domain because its not 70 years old but have they had permission to print.

    Well moving on from that, a lot of people are not happy with Todd Bentley, not just the apologetics crowd.
    However, I thought that was a good point you made about Tricia Tillin
    [But there does seem to be an assumption here that any link with Latter Rain churches even at third hand discredits a ministry]
    And that helps bring some balance into the debate.
    I need to prayerfully research this all some more. Even when you don’t agree with something you still have to work out if it’s a gnat or a camel 😉 !!!

    I think there is a lot of evidence that the Kansas City Prophets are into the extremes of Latter Rain. The fact that Paul Cain headed up the KCPs doesn’t help their cause. Earnest Gruen’s blue book has a lot in it to be worried about.

    Regarding the Roman Catholic church, I would say it is quite dubious.

  57. Julie, you said “I can’t see what the harm is” and I wrongly took you to be attributing that attitude to your friends. I thought you had retracted the sentiment “I can’t see what the harm is”, but if you want to stand by this amazing disregard of the law and the legitimate rights of authors, so be it. But can’t we drop this petty dispute and get back to the issues?

    I haven’t seen evidence that Cain and his fellow prophets “are into the extremes of Latter Rain”. But then I admit that I haven’t looked very hard. I would like to, but just at the moment my time is tight.

  58. This isn’t petty, you are twisting my words at every opportunity and putting words into my mouth and I’ve had enough. How can I have a debate with someone who is doing that.

    e.g. You take my words out of context where I say
    “I do then make the throw away comment about I can’t see what the harm is”

    I am calling this a ‘throw away comment’ so it does not mean what you state:
    “but if you want to stand by this amazing disregard of the law and the legitimate rights of authors, so be it”.

    I have made mistakes on this blog and apologised without putting the blame back onto you. It would be nice if you could do the same.
    It would also be nice if you could extend the same grace to me that you extend to Todd Bentley !!

  59. Julie, if you want to retract your “throw away comment” you may do so. If you want to stand by it you may do so. I have accepted that I misunderstood your comment. I apologise for that. Perhaps I am still misunderstanding it, but I thought that the “it” that you saw no harm in was publishing someone else’s work on the Internet without their permission, which (except for very old work) is certainly illegal. I am not going to apologise for saying that this (which in fact did not happen in this case) is wrong.

    I do not want to discuss this matter any more, and will not accept any more comments about it unless you feel led to make a further apology.

  60. Hi Peter

    Ok, received. I misunderstood what you said about retracting. The comment I made
    “As it was circulated to so many ministers I would think it would be ok” wsn’t a serious one in the first place so didn’t see it as needing retracting.
    I think I made it because in the back of my mind what I was honestly thinking was that what had happened at KCF was so serious that copyright paled into insignificance by comparison.

    However, copyright is a serious issue and I was not undermining that generally.

    Thankyou. I also apologise for my words being quite harsh and direct.

    PS They are not my friends as I don’t know them, it is just a web site that I have come across.

  61. Julie, thanks. I accept your apology, and apologise again for my misunderstanding. However, I do not agree with sentiments like “what had happened at KCF was so serious that copyright paled into insignificance by comparison”, which is precisely what I had in mind when I mentioned people saying that the end justifies the means.

  62. My Comment taken from blog 101574
    I know because of Todd Bentleys alignment with Branham, Paul Cain who are all into false Latter Rain theology that there is something wrong.

    Peter’s Comment taken from the same blog
    ……Neither Branham nor Cain was/is into Latter Rain theology. They may have some links to it but there is no evidence that they hold to its more extreme teachings.

    Well, here is some evidence from Clifford Hill (Ex editor of Prophecy Today magazine). He is a Charismatic and I know people who know him personally and say that he is a man of integrity.

    Quoting from a Prophecy Today article Volume 6 No 4 Clifford Hill quotes from the book ‘Some Say it Thundered’ by David Pytches.
    [In this book the Kansas City Prophet’s state that they are the beginning of a ‘new order’, and ‘end-time Omega generation superchurch’ and that all other churches are part of the ‘Ishmael spirit’ and should either close their doors or come in submission to them.]
    This is extreme Latter Rain theology.

    They then give prophecies to this end and cause churches to close as documented in Earnie Gruen’s Blue book p13 point 8 – link below

    Earnie Gruen’s blue book http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html
    On p11 Mike Bickle talks about the Manifest Sons of God here – extreme rule and reign now theology and then is quoted later as saying this about the charismatic movement in private.
    [“…The Ishmael spirit includes most of the Charismatic churches today. There are two movements, and I believe with all my heart the Charismatic movement is the Ishmael movement…
    “We’re looking for a whole new order…I don’t want prominence in Ishmael’s camp. I don’t want to be a part of it at all…we want to come out of the old order, because it’s unbroken…untrained…humanistic…manmade, self-centered… illegitimate…afflicted with evil spirits…“]

    They don’t believe in Apostle and Prophets as the ordinary church does. They believe that they are the super apostles and prophets and everyone has to bow the knee to them.

    There is loads more evidence out there everywhere. However Earnie Gruens blue book is more reliable as it was written with 40 other pastors who had suffered abuse at their hands in the 1990’s.

    You can say this is old but there is no sign of repenting and it is everywhere you look.

    It is possible that they hi-jacked Todd Bentley for their own purposes but it seems he was buying into it early on due to him linking himself with the same angel that started Branham & Paul Cain’s ministry.
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kSlt0_8HwMk

  63. Julie, I am totally confused about which words you are claiming came from Clifford Hill or David Pytches, who are both men of integrity but not infallible. I don’t know enough about the Kansas City Prophets to discuss them here.

    But on pages 123-124 of Gruen’s document there is evidence that Paul Cain as one of these prophets held (some decades ago) to extreme Latter Rain teaching. “They will have the kind of imperishable bodies that are talked about in the 15th chanter of Corinthians” is clearly in error. Thank you for the link.

    But if there is an “old order” which is “unbroken…untrained…humanistic…manmade, self-centered… illegitimate…afflicted with evil spirits…”, wouldn’t you want to come out of it?

  64. Hi Peter

    The quote is what was written by David Pitches in his book ‘Some Say it Thundered’.

    Clifford Hill is quoting the book in his magazine Prophecy Today.

    This all came out of the fact that they wanted Clifford Hill to do the forward to the book (In 1990)but after meeting the KCPs him & his 3 colleagues independently discerned an evil spirit moving in Bob Jones and alot wrong with the movement. He advised them to take time out to repent before coming over here.
    However, the KCPs came over here anyway and there was some dishonesty among the CofE ministers saying he had sanctioned the KCPs when he had not.

    Clifford Hill went public in his magazine because he felt that the KCPs would be detrimental to the church in this country. Prophecy Today Mag Volume 6 No.4 because of the adherence to Latter Rain.

    Clifford Hill himself was considered a modern day prophet at the time acurately prophesying the strong winds in the late 1980s and the stock market crash. He is an ordained minister who has written several books.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    [But if there is an “old order” which is “unbroken…untrained…humanistic…manmade, self-centered… illegitimate…afflicted with evil spirits…”,]
    wouldn’t you want to come out of it?

    My Comment
    This is Mike Bickle talking about the charismatic / established church. They believe that the established church is so corrupt it needs to be done away with and what remains taken over by them.

  65. Thank you, Julie. There was clearly a disagreement between Bishop David Pytches and Clifford Hill, in about 1990, about some things happening in one US church at that time. I’m sure not everything there was perfect, but I trust Pytches’ general judgment on this matter.

    Anyway, why are we arguing about something that happened in 1990? Some people may have done or said some wrong things then, but what really matters is what they are doing and saying now. So let’s stop focusing on ancient history and find out where God is leading us today.

  66. …the reason it matters is because this document gives evidence that the Kansas City Prophets were into the extreme Latter Rain theology among other things. It all links into today because Todd Bentley linked himself with Branham and Paul Cain via his angel.
    The Kansas City Prophets have never repented of all of this so I believe that nothing has changed.

    It is also important because they were introducing the false theology they believe in to this country.

    If anyone wants a copy of this article send me an email to julie@ballyhoo.org.uk.

  67. Julie, I accept that Todd Bentley and other teachers today have adopted some aspects of Latter Rain theology. But there is no evidence that they, or as far as I know anyone in the last 18 years, are teaching or have taught the extreme doctrines which Paul Cain and some others taught around 1990. If they are not teaching these things now, what is the problem? If you want to know what the Kansas City Prophets are teaching now, see here for Mike Bickle and here for John Paul Jackson; I don’t think Paul Cain and Bob Jones are still ministering regularly. I’m sure it will be more profitable for everyone to look at what is being taught now rather than what happened in the 1980s.

  68. Peter / Julie,

    I only recently came across Todd. I have been a committed christian following Jesus over 30 years and found the transforming of my soul and spirit through his grace fantastic. Todd for whatever reason is a deluded and insane fraud.

    My argument is simple. One man has only ever been resurrected and one in Lazerus raised from the dead. Todd mildly claims 32 people have been raised from the dead as a result of his ministry.
    This may be true if it were not for one fraud setup by a critic who wanted to test if any validation was actually done. None was. This is either naivity or simply the truth does not matter. If the truth does not matter Jesus did not rise either and we are all liars. I work in the life assurance industry. Your greatest commodity is trust. If you loose this you loose everything. If you, in spiritual witness, take a lie and portray this as truth you have just made yourself a liar.

    I believe Todd has experienced some strange things in visions and angels visiting. Unfortunately his background and testimony is very exagerated. If he had become a pathological liar scattering truth as it fits and still got massive attention, the temptation to embelish is very great. I have led people to the Lord through repentence from sin and accepting Jesus sacrifice for sin etc. I recognise only exalting the exstatic in the meetings and not this traditional revival experience seen in proper awakings. Life, confession of failures, sins forgiven, transformed lives is the fruit not magical healings like going to the doctor for medicen.

    There are hundreds of people who clamour for signs but will not repent of the sin they do every day. How many lies have to be spoken before a persons ministry is just an act, though maybe a powerfull one.
    I have seen and been involved in churchs from Brethren to Pentecostal and I still love His people and His gospel. The gospel of grace is not what I have recognised in the ministry of Todd and I have never put the Lord in a box.

    My last judgement of all ministries is who benefits and how are people built up. The problem in the world is not we need more miracles being performed its sinners hate God and want to carry on sinning so they need conviction of their sin and repentence to walk in love and peace with Jesus. The rest is just window dressing.

  69. Peter,

    I am sure in your mind you have answered these issues. For me the realm of spiritual authority is more grounded in normal life, expressions of love and holiness. People who claim special personal interaction with spiritual beings normally fall into the insane or miss-guided. No where in scripture are we encouraged to desire angels help in any shape or form. The Lord sends angels to do his will and underline a message he wants to make. Jesus time and again talks of a transformed inner self, humbleness, grace to the poor and oppressed. This is the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
    Did not Mohammed claim an angel delivered the Koran to him. Does this validate its contents?
    I can praise sing in the Spirit and love my fellow man. We are called as deciples to be people in the here and now, showing our faith through good works. A real work of the Lord would testify to this happenning in peoples lives. This is the fire we all need more of. I have not seen this basic level of testimony shown in this so called work of the Lord.

    Why is that? In Jesus ministry all his miracles work with the aim of bringing resolution between the individuals and the Lord and to underline his message. Todd appears to be missing a message.

    Peter

  70. Peter, did not Stephen reflect the regular Jewish teaching when he taught that the Old Testament law was given through angels (Acts 7:53)? Does that invalidate its contents? What was truly given by the angels of God is valid from God. And even if Todd’s message was not as complete as it might have been, that does not invalidate his whole ministry either. But since you “only recently came across Todd”, do you actually know what he preached at Lakeland, or have you only seen extracts from his meetings as carefully selected and edited by his enemies?

  71. Peter, What dealings do christians have with angels? Very little. We are called to the spiritual gifts, to praise and worship, to acts of love and grace. We have communion with the Lord through the Holy Spirit. We have a gospel that talks of obeying Jesus’s commands through love and thereby being his friend. Yes there are spiritual wars and difficulties but we are called to love those around us and witness. Discipleship comes through dealing with the struggles of the inner self with the aspirations of love expressed. We are always struggling with our actions and attitudes and our every move seems always to be caught with wrong motivation and lack of insight.

    The whole of scripture is laid out over many generations and people so there is no argument over its meaning or implications. Any individual or spiritual being or authority must be measured against this. So an angel appears and starts revealing new revelation and ideas and spiritual understanding. Why should I believe this is true if it contradicts scripture? It is the Lords gospel I follow and not some lesser being. Is the gospel complete for salvation and growth for the body of Christ? Yes. How we apply the love from our hearts to others is down to us with communion and agreement with the Lord. In the Lords eyes we are heaven on earth.

    When I was younger I used to get enthusiastic about spiritual realms and battles and insight and wanted to change peoples perspective. I thought I understood everything in terms of perfection and obedience to the law. The issue of witness was simply persuading people of the reality of Jesus and then they would follow. Over 30 years I have now come to realise its through love entering our inner most being like a well rising up and over-flowing do we find real communion with the Lord. I have met people who understood the gospel but did not want it. In essence they were not in love with love itself. The road of trust to get people to this point is difficult and long winded. If you look at the scriptures even those who you think at first respond can dry up and fall away.

    Any teacher then who suddenly moves away from the scriptural tenants and claims special spiritual being authority better be very carefull for their own soul let alone anybody elses. The circumstances need to be very special and unusual.

    I have read Todds description and experience of angels and ministries they have, visions of the 3rd heaven etc. This is extremly unusual and to a degree that I would worry about someones sanity. Todd admits to being possessed in the past and behaving in ususual ways which may be connected.

    I do not know Todds full ministry or why he has done the things he has done. What I do know that Jesus calls us to do the simple things and show love to all those around. Any move of God will fall into line with the precepts of the nature of man and the nature of God. In the end all I care about is that the Lord is honoured and the gospel of love preached.

    As an evangelistic outpouring without the message it becomes a religious medicene show. Worst still if rightousness is not followed then the gospel is compromised. The Lord has not called me to judge but showing loving concern. The consequences of the truth will work there own way through.

    If you still feel in the Lord that this movement stands alongside scriptural tenants then praise the Lord, it will come back. If not then it will fall.

    Where I stand at the moment I would be very worried by Todd not just as a christian but also as a member of the public.

    Am I being unfair?

    Peter

  72. Hi Peter

    You will find alot of our discussion under Peter’s blog. The basic argument is whether Todd was healing through an angel or whether he just believes angels need to be present.

    On this blog I have linked to Todd’s Angelic Hosts document and Dr Greig’s theological defence of Todd.

    ‘Angel Called Emma’ blog 47835 and 66945
    http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=527

  73. Peter, if an angel starts teaching anything contrary to scripture, of course I reject it – Galatians 1:8. But angels do reveal things to people in the Christian era which are compatible with Scripture, and help us in other ways. See for example Acts 5:19, 8:26, 10:3, 12:7, 27:23. Should Philip have refused to obey the angel in 8:26 on the basis that the instruction he was given was not explicit in Scripture? I agree that we should be focusing more on love and not too much on angels, but it is not false teaching to have contact with angels. As for Todd’s vision being unusual, I just heard an account of a rather similar vision from a new Christian who has probably not even heard of Todd, so I suspect that such visions at least in dreams are rather commonplace. Yes, I believe Todd will be back, but first he needs to put quite a few things right with God and with other people.

    Julie, thanks for helping the other Peter. I’m not sure I agree with your summary of the argument. I don’t think anyone is saying that angels need to be present. I think we are both agreeing that Todd commonly, but not necessarily always, expects angels to take a part in ministering healing from God. Our basic agreement is that you think that is wrong and I do not. Perhaps you too need to study the references to angels in Acts which I just listed.

  74. Hi Peter

    All of those scriptures are angels as messengers not as healers.

    I never said I didn’t believe in angels. I believe in them as messengers. I don’t believe they are allowed to heal – find me the scriptures apart from Bethesda that say they are. We went all through this on the Angel Emma blog.

    So I believe all the above accounts and know of a couple of people who have experienced angel visitations in human form as helpers and message bringers.

    What was the vision the new Christian had?

  75. Julie, I do not accept your presupposition that God and his servants are only allowed to do things which are explicitly described in Scripture. I saw some nice pictures of your church wedding at your website. But where is the Scriptural justification for church weddings? Should I be denouncing you as a false teacher and calling on you to repent for daring to go through such an unscriptural ceremony?

    The new Christian had a dream that he had died and gone to heaven, all the sins in his life were taken away, and he was sent back to live a new life. I don’t remember the details. Is that kind of dream or vision wrong or occultic? But Todd’s vision of being on the operating table in heaven, if that is what you are referring to, is very much of the same kind.

  76. Peter / Julie,

    I have read some more of Todds recently Fresh Fire Teachings May 5th 2008 labelled “Open Heavens”.

    Open heavens dimension
    Todd has written:-
    “The way the supernatural realm is written off or relegated to the exclusive domain of the occult and the demonic realm, is wrong!…That message is out there, and yes, the demonic does operate supernaturally, but we need to embrace the power of God out there—the real supernatural power!”
    Todd has written:-
    “Also, it’s where we can learn to open and sanctify our imagination, and begin to have the eyes of our understanding enlightened (the mind’s eye) whereby we begin to touch the dimension of seeing—the dimension of visions, trances, dreams, and angelic visitation. ”

    I personally do not agree with Todd on his view on the role of angels or desire the experiences he wants us all to have.

    My personal walk focuses on how the inner self for many has been completely distorted when they interact with others. I wonder how we reach maturity and the love Jesus showed.
    Through putting in place the commandments Jesus gave in the sermon on the mount people become transformed in their emotional lives and spiritual relationship with the Lord.
    The spiritual leaders I respect most have emphasied these features most.

    The fireworks of the external spiritual war seems a complete distraction especially to the more emotionally fragile or shaken.

    The following is a warning for us not to judge but leave the rest up to the Lord.

    “Anyone who speaks out against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Matt 12:32

    Todd has now had a massive focus on him and been provided with a platform.
    Within weeks/months has been shown to be an adulterer, caught out as a sinner and not a righteous teacher of life. How floored was the rest of his teaching?

    Jesus spent time with sinners which his enemies critised him for.
    Jesus answers them. “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” Luke 6:31 – 32

    “A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign!” Matt 12:39

    “Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God.” Matt 5:8

    I await to see the grace of the Lord sweep the world with his love,

    Peter

  77. No, Peter, Todd has not “been shown to be an adulterer”. He has admitted to an inappropriate relationship with a woman but not to an adulterous one. No evidence has been presented of adultery.

    Perhaps when you read the New Testament you will see how commonly the early Christians experienced “visions, trances, dreams, and angelic visitation” and realise that these are legitimate aspects of Christian spirituality, experiences given by God to his people to help them in their personal spiritual life and to reach others.

  78. Peter,

    I stand corrected. Todd was removed from ministry because of a sinfull relationship with another woman other than his wife though the actual sin has not been specified.

    Ofcourse there is no limit between how the Lord has used different means to communicate with people.
    Jesus calls us to a full emotional relationship with him and all those around us without the distortions created by sin.
    When we meet in heaven will we be rational, loving beings able to see the truth face to face and react appropriately to it?
    Likewise today we should relate to each other in the light of that love. Occasionally special insights will be given and gifts, trances, visions, dreams and visitations. This is the experience of the christian church. In the parable of the seed and the sower Jesus talked of the seed being a growing plant in peoples heart. I would call this love, and how it works through overtime all the aspects of your life. The seeds are acts of love which plant new seeds in other peoples lives.

    The block to becoming a people of God is the sin in our lives and lack of repentence. Is this true or are you suggesting there is something else?
    Do not the gifts focus on these issues and how to continue in right communion with the Lord?

    Peter

  79. Thank you, Peter. In fact if you read comment 110279 which I just wrote on another thread you will see what has been specified, which rules out literal adultery.

    Certainly one “block to becoming a people of God is the sin in our lives and lack of repentence”. But I would say that there are other blocks which are “sin” only in a rather broad sense, such as the failure to deal with past hurts and unhelpful habits in one’s life, and lack of openness to the work and gifts of the Holy Spirit; also structural matters within the church such as the ones raised by Frank Viola in Reimagining Church which I recently reviewed here.

  80. Hi Peter

    I had a look at that blog but couldn’t see the bit that overuled literal adultery.

    On your ‘Peter & Doris Wagner on Todd Bentley’
    http://www.qaya.org/blog/?p=652
    you quote Peter Wagner as saying this about Todd Bentley:
    Their marriage has been torn for years by his emotional attachment with at least one other female whose physical contact went beyond hugging and kissing and holding hands.

  81. Julie, here is a repeat of what I wrote in comment 110279, which rules out literal adultery:

    The letters from Fresh Fire stated on 12th August

    Todd and Shonnah Bentley are presently experiencing significant friction in their relationship and are currently separated. We want to affirm that there has been no sexual immorality on the part of either Todd or Shonnah, nor has there ever been.

    – and on 15th August

    Todd Bentley has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff.

    Note the consistent position that the relationship, although wrong, was not a sexual one.

    As for what Peter Wagner wrote, I suspect that this refers to what happened a few years ago, although I cannot be sure. In any case I am not sure if Wagner knew the facts. I understood Peter Waller to be alleging that there had been adultery this year, which has been specifically denied.

  82. Hi Peter

    I don’t think he would have come out with this if he didn’t know the facts. It would be a very strong thing to say, if it were not true there would have been an outcry because there is alot at stake here, for Wagner’s ministry aswell as he is linked to Todd.

  83. Peter,

    Todd is a glory man. We need to know about angels and the supernatural.

    This will rock the whole world and be the revival everyone has been waiting for.

    I have to say this sounds more like what happens when people take LSD and extrapolate into everybody else the elation they feel.

    Praise the Lord for the enthusiasm and the touch some christians have felt in their lives. If this glory helps us walk in righteousness and exercise love to everyone we meet then great. Unfortunately the emotional history of all our lives pulls us down and needs refreshing though repentence and obedience to the word of God spoken into our hearts. Jesus instructed us to contemplate His love on the cross ministered to our hearts by the Holy Spirit. We are commanded to obey his commands and continually struggle with our own natures. Where does the glory gospel fit in with this? These are not minor issues but Todd and similar preachers do not appear to be providing more than a quick spiritual high.

  84. Hi Peter & Peter

    Came across this article yesterday. It is a 1995ish paper that is coming against the Toronto blessing but ignore that for now.

    What interested me was the scriptural argument which is basically saying you receive the Holy Spirit initially by the laying on of hands once and for all. That there is no scriptural argument for getting hands laid on you again for the filling of the Holy Spirit.
    And from then on it is saying that you keep on ‘be, being filled’ by the Holy Spirit welling up within you (I suppose through obedience, prayer and repentance). There certainly seems to be a scriptural argument for this.

    Obviously there is also laying on of hands to receive spiritual gifts, I think, can’t find the scriptures at the mo.

    I don’t want to get into arguments over the Toronto blessing on this one but want to look at this scriptural argument. I have read my Bible a lot but never seen this before. What are anyone’s thoughts on this.

    Randall Hardy sees himself as a charismatic, looks like he has written articles for Clifford Hill’s Prophecy Today magazine in the past.
    http://www.amen.org.uk/studies/rh/rec-anth.htm

  85. Peter, I understand your concern. Indeed this shouldn’t be a matter of a quick spiritual fix. But I don’t think anyone at Lakeland is teaching that it should be. Sadly some people try to treat it as such, but that is not intended. I am sure Todd and the others would agree that we need to spend our lives contemplating the love and glory of God and letting ourselves be transformed through that.

    Julie, thanks for the link. I accept that dubious unbiblical language is sometimes used by charismatics, and asking to receive the Holy Spirit again may be an example. But I note that Hardy’s main argument is contradicted by Acts 4:31, where the already Spirit-filled disciples are “all filled with the Holy Spirit”, some kind of new filling or empowering. Indeed “This is an example of the inner well of the Spirit bursting forth and does not in any way indicate a second reception of Him by those present”, but that is precisely what charismatics have in mind when they ask for the Spirit to come upon Christians who already have the Spirit. In Ephesians 5:18 (a verse Hardy ignores) believers are told to keep on being filled with the Spirit (present imperative), indicating that this is something we should be actively seeking.

  86. Peter,

    Todd has aligned himself and fresh fire ministries with the theology of the latter rain prophets

    http://blog.thewaycf.com/2008/05/pastor-strader-speaks-on-todd-bentley_31.html

    Do you believe the Jesus through his apostles preaching the gospel of love and redemption got it wrong? Is there now a new rain of the Holy Spirit?

    Does your gift of the Holy Spirit in your heart rise up to claim domion as a child of God with superspiritual powers?

    I know the power of the Holy Spirit through a soul convicted of sin and seeking repentence through the cross. I know I am a sinner of poor spirit and meekness in may assertions of faith. I know I have prayed many things and been wrong and unsure. Am I now wrong in my spirituallity and need to join the army of the spirit led with angels at the front?

    Maybe I need a new laying on of hands to gain this new spirit? But what if this spirit is not from the Lord and all it deciples preach a different way to the apostles who knew Jesus face to face. Who is right then?

    Surely then this new spirit must not be from God and is the very thing preached of in Matt: 7 v 21-23.

    I am no judge but the Lord is and his anger burns against his enemies. Those who lie and deceive and hide their messages, not standing in the light are not of the Lord.

    Many years ago I heared and saw the doctrine of the rapture and tribulation. So much was added to the book of revelation and a spirit of fear generated that I myself was scared. I was scared of the words at the end of the book of revelation rev 22v18
    “If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. If anyone takes words away from this book of prohecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.”
    Maybe these men are so deluded and they do not believe the Word of God that they will twist it to their own ends but they have just twisted their own salvation away.

    Peter

  87. Peter, I believe that a large part, although probably not all, of Latter Rain teaching is correct and in agreement with “the gospel of love and redemption”. If you are not prepared even to consider this possibility then we must simply agree to differ.

  88. Peter,

    You seem to be hoping for something more than the christian experience you currently have.
    I like the book by C S Lewis, the great divorce.

    This in the end is an argument about realities and the nature of love and perfection.

    How do you believe we are to walk as Jesus walked? How is a person transformed into perfection? What is sin and its root cause? Why did Jesus condemn the pharisees for knowing the truth, appearing to live it and yet being empty?

    Being a christian is not easy in the sense of words spoken outwardly are often not reflected inwardly. Maybe your heart has not felt that every word we speak, every intent, every asparation is tainted.

    What does the latter rain theology add to this?
    Do what they suggest is the true framework?

    I know only little of what they preach. I can only differ in opinion if I know what I am rejecting.

    All I wrote is my position in Jesus against any wind of doctrine. Are you suggesting that in these proclamations I have rejected their theology. Please show me if this is so that my theology and understanding of the gospel is wrong. I want fellowship with all those who come in the name of the Lord.

    Peter

  89. Julie,

    Thankyou for your links in 103078 to the history of the charismatic church and restoration movement. I believe in Joels army but in a different light. An unstoppable wave shall rise up as fruit of the work of the Lord in peoples lives. This will not be by the will of man.

    People want answers before they are provided and prophesy great things for each other with great zest. In all sincerity if the prophecy has not come to fruition then they were false and of the flesh. If the prophets claim this is their ministry then they should stop. But if this fractures their world view then unfortunately they are deluded.

    Fear seems lacking. Why do people want freedom in worship and teaching? Because we all have insights that differ with each other in time and emotion. But when we start being the teacher then only our perspective is true. We must now control the effects and dillution of our ideas.

    Jesus would stand back and talk of spiritual blindness. What critism he had of the pharasees? They were always more interested in power and control rather than the truth. As soon as you point the finger and break up something you must understand why it has become the way it is or you will create the same or worse. Has not the restoration movement done just that?

    Peter

  90. Peter, I wish I had time to discuss this more, but I don’t. But I do want to say that what most Christians consider normal experience, an hour or two at church on Sundays and a struggle to obey a set of rules during the week, is not at all what the Christian life should be about. Yes, I do want to experience much more than that, and I want others to. The general kind of teaching of Todd Bentley and others offers that. That is why it is so attractive to me and many others. And I believe that it is also biblical, not in every detail because it is tainted as you say, but in its overall trends.

  91. Peter,

    I wonder if you have ever been in love. You talk of Jesus in a distant way. I have to admit that for me Jesus has been a daily presence for over 35 years. I am still amazed at the wonders of life he has led me to. Its in how we are emotionally built our true life lives. The more barriers and problems you have in your emotions by failing to let the Lords love minister, so your river of life will run dry.

    Many teachers will come and go but the spiritual and emotional rules remain the same. The problem is finding ourselves in all this and learning to let the love from the seed that has been planted grow through us. I hope I manage to build with gold and silver on the foundation I have in Christ my Saviour.

    All the best in Him

    Peter

  92. Peter, I think you misunderstood me. For me personally, now, Jesus is not distant. But there have been times when he was. And it is through strands of the charismatic movement related to Toronto etc that I have in the last few years been brought back to a living and close relationship with Jesus. I want to others to experience what I am experiencing, but so many in our churches are not.

    The implication of what many people have been saying here, about Branham’s evil angel etc, is that the Jesus I have a relationship with is not real but a demonic deception. So perhaps you can understand why I am so strongly opposed to this teaching.

  93. Peter,

    It sounds like you know the Lord and want to follow Him. I hope those who have problems with Latter Rain theology all know the Lord.

    It appears very few get anywhere close to Todd or Williams experience of angels. I do not understand the blessing or the writhings people are experiencing and some cases need carefull handling and investigation. Todd has now left the scene in some kind of sin.

    Latter rain people believe in a victorious church will rise up. Amen. Let it be so. Unfortunately after over 50 years of this theology this has not happened and nothing has changed on the spiritual front. We do not have the leaders. We do not have the faith. I am sorry this is prophecy, proven by fulfillment. If there is no fulfillment the prophecy is false.

    The charismatic movement was a reflection of a massive move in society from rules based living with defined roles to a more emotional and inspirational driven life style. People stepped out in the Lord and in love He responded. Rather than this amplifying spiritual holiness and purity, the freedom became expressions of the carnal. We are all responsible how we live and what we do, but whatever we should know our hearts are decietfull and wicked. We so easily trip and fall.

    I was in Operation Mobilisation with a brother who told me a story of how they were worshiping as a group and it was like they were in heaven, feeling the elation of knowing the Lord face to face. A message came that though they had experienced this reality they would be tested and have to witness when they did not have this feeling. He felt broken because he had failed this test. Did not Peter the Apostle fail the same test.

    So many christians have failed the same test. When things were easy and real they walked well. When things became hard they walked away. Where is the truth other than in the failure of the believers to honour the Lord. I have walked in glory, and walked in sadness and loneliness. Still I know the Lord loves me. Is this not how we are to walk? I ask you to ask yourself, how true is the love I have for the Lord and how have I blocked His work in my life? This is the beginning of wisdom in the Spirit.

    Yours in Him,

    Peter

  94. Thank you, Peter. I have never endorsed the more startling Latter Rain type prophecies which might have implied a huge end time revival starting tomorrow, especially when that tomorrow is now in the past. I do see signs that the true church is beginning to be revived, but also separated from the false church of human religious tradition. The charismatic and healing movement, Toronto, Lakeland etc are small indications of that, first signs perhaps of the end time revival. But they are only that to the extent that they remained spiritual, and of course elements of them became carnal and fell out of God’s purpose.

    I too have failed the test you mentioned, in various ways since I first tasted worshipping as in heaven, perhaps in 1979. But that doesn’t invalidate my experience, it just shows that I am imperfect, a sinner being remade. Like you “I have walked in glory, and walked in sadness and loneliness.” And I know that given the choice I would rather walk in glory, and I think that is also where God would have me walk, and so that is the way I seek.

  95. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » How would Derek Prince have reacted to Todd Bentley?

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