Rick Joyner, a highly respected charismatic leader who joined with Peter Wagner, Bill Johnson, John Arnott and Che Ahn in commissioning Todd Bentley at Lakeland in June (but for some reason was omitted from some of the lists of those involved), gives a different take on Todd’s marriage problems in the second half of this article, dated 17th August. I presume that he has Todd’s permission to write what he writes.
Many people have been alleging that Todd left his wife for another woman, and calling this “adultery”. The official statements have only said that they have separated, with nothing said about who initiated this, and that Todd “has entered into an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level with a female member of his staff”.
But according to Rick it was Todd’s wife who initiated the separation:
I still do not know all of the details of his separation, but I did ask him if there had been any immorality on his part, or if he had affections for someone else that was causing this. He assured me that he had never committed adultery, and that there was no “other woman” that caused his separation. Some of his leaders who I talked to also confirmed that Todd had not been in any immoral relationship, though they were all grieving over Todd’s marital problems.
The problems Todd and his wife have had getting along have been public knowledge for several years. I don’t know enough of the details to blame anyone, but I know Todd quite well, and being married to him has got to be like being hand-cuffed to a hurricane. …
When I was in Lakeland a few months ago, I was told that Todd had been making a real effort to patch things up and heal their relationship, but in June she had left and refused any contact. Todd has now lost hope that it will be worked out, especially now that she has made it clear that she will not even see him. Todd is obviously frustrated and just wants to resolve this situation that has been so hard for so long. …
When God got a divorce, was it His fault? Of course not! He was the most perfect Husband there could ever be, but He had a wayward wife that He finally gave up on.
Now I accept that there is some tension between these different accounts, but agreement on the basic facts. Presumably the “immoral relationship” denied is one involving physical adultery, and so distinguished from “an unhealthy relationship on an emotional level”. Without wanting to justify Todd, for a man who has been deserted by his wife to find emotional solace with another woman, while unhealthy, is a rather different matter from a man deserting his wife for the other woman. It is certainly not “adultery”. I note that Rick’s words are carefully chosen to show that Todd is not denying a non-adulterous relationship with another woman after the separation.
We don’t know what stresses led Shonnah to leave Todd, but “being hand-cuffed to a hurricane” through the daily meetings at Lakeland may be too much for any woman to take, so we should not blame her either.
Perhaps, and I am speculating here, we can now guess the real reason for Todd leaving Lakeland in July and then returning rather quickly: he could have been trying to mend his relationship with Shonnah by returning home, and found himself rebuffed.
So where should we go from here? Rick is more upbeat about Todd being restored to ministry that John Arnott, perhaps because he seems to have a closer personal relationship with Todd. He writes (his own emphasis):
The world will never believe our gospel of redemption and restoration until we learn to redeem and restore. Let’s take a worst case scenario here and say that Todd was guilty of terrible things and is the one at fault in the separation—what should our response be? We are told in Galatians 6:1:
Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.
So, if anyone has been “caught in any trespass,” those who are “spiritual” must restore them. Those who are truly spiritual approach every situation with that goal—redemption and restoration. This is more than just forgiving them—it is getting them back to the place they were. The next verse says, “Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2). …
This is a real opportunity for the church to show some maturity and Christian love. This does not mean compromise, but it does mean addressing this situation in an almost opposite way that we have tended to do in the past. We will all reap what we sow, and if we want to reap grace, we must learn to sow grace every chance we get. If we want to receive mercy, we need to learn to sow mercy every chance we get. Here’s a good chance!
Amen!
The thouhgt or the presumption of Joyner being a “well regarded” charismatic leader is laughable. Here’s a great link detailing the fact that Joyner is little more that a New Age deciever. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/joyner.html.
So when people look to Joyner to “restore” Bentley, realize and ask..Restore to what?” His pecualiar shibolleth, that is leading thousands astray with his New Age tripe and the false brethren he associates himself with? This isn’t going to help the Bentley’s one bit, and instead will only further enslave Todd into more and more deception.
Ron, we will have to agree to differ on Rick Joyner’s theology. I do not want to endorse everything he writes as I am not familiar enough with it. But it seems to me that he is much closer to biblical truth than the legalistic Joseph R. Chambers whose writings you link to.
Ha…all I can say si “Hey Kool-Aid”, take another drink. Forgot to mention Joyner’s association with the Knights of Malta…another fine “christian” organization huh Pete?
Ron, I do not endorse everything Rick Joyner has done either. I don’t know enough about the Knights of Malta incident to make a judgment. It remains true that he is “a highly respected charismatic leader”, highly respected at least among charismatics.
When God got a divorce, was it His fault? Of course not! He was the most perfect Husband there could ever be, but He had a wayward wife that He finally gave up on.
I don’t get that bit. Did God give up on us?
It really sounds like a lot a unhelpful speculation. Why do we need to judge this situation? Obviously Todd and Shonnah have issues to work through. But seriously who doesn’t? I’m not sure I follow Rick’s logic, but I find him a real mixed bag anyway.
At some point it would be good for Todd and Shonnah to issue a joint statement, but give them time. The correct response is not to link a bashing site (Larsen) but to pray.
Peter,
I’m with Ron. Joyner is a false teacher who comes out with all sorts of unbiblical nonsense. Have you ever read any of his ideas? Where’s your evidence that he’s highly respected? This charismatic, for one, regards him as a heretic.
Mike, I think Rick may have been referring to Jeremiah 3:6-10, where God says that he divorced Israel, i.e. the northern kingdom. This is of course a metaphor.
Frank, are you calling Rick’s report of what Todd said to him “unhelpful speculation”? Or just my paragraph in which I wrote “I am speculating here”, which you can ignore if you prefer? It takes two to issue a joint statement, and if Shonnah is refusing all contact with Todd he can hardly issue a joint statement with her. But indeed we ought to pray. I allowed Ron’s first comment only because I had just rejected a much worse one on another thread, but my patience with people like him and Sidefall is wearing thin.
Sidefall, your opinion does not surprise me but is also of no consequence to me. For evidence see this page from the very site you linked to, which lists Joyner as one of
The ‘Apostles’ aren’t even aligned! 🙂
This is all spin anyways.
Gosh – you put up with a lot here Peter!
It is one thing to disagree with Joiner, or not like his style, to question his theology etc. but a “new age deceiver”?
Anyway, not my point at all. I guess you have seen this from Dutch Sheets
(Hope my HTML works!). He isn’t really my cup of tea either, as it happens, and i am not sure about framing his points as “repentance” on behalf of the charismatic church, but behind that i think he make some good points.
Personally i want to move beyond the what happened (i am not that interested in who left who – it is tragic and the real losers are the family, whatever the rights and wrongs), and think about what can we learn from this, which i think Sheets is beginning to do.
As an aside, i think Joiner is on very thin ice to say use Jer 3, and God giving Israel a certificate of divorce to say that divorce should not disqualify people from “ministry”. It is quite clear from the rest of Scripture that God did not renege on His covenant with israel – it is that kind of appalling use of Scripture that gives Charismatics a bad rep for Biblical hermeneutics, and rightly so. I don’t think divorce disqualifies us, but i would be laughed out of court if i used that scripture to justify that stance.
Uh….how can Fresh Fire be saying that Todd entered into an emotionally unhealthy relationship with another woman, and then Todd say that there is NO “other woman”???
To me, there is only two explanations: Fresh Fire is lying about the unhealthy emotional relationship (why would they say that there is one, when there isn’t???) or Todd lied (makes WAY more sense to me).
Because I’m sorry, but if you’ve entered into an unhealthy emotional relationship with another woman, then duh, SHE’S the other woman!! If what Joyner said is true, then Todd lied to him…there’s no other way that I know how to spin it.
i am sick fed up with the way no-one in authority is calling these so called apostles to boot for encouraging and embracing the whole business of the falseness of the teaching of todd. what of the fruit of the spirit that chould be the character showing through all christians in some measure and certainly in a leader. I am so hurt and disillusioned by the men who have the authority to stand up and address the things i have seen on youtube which are an insult to any christians intelligence….and what a sordid religion we are showing to the hindu and muslim and those who have no faith at all. the shame of it all. i am nothing special in the sense of a bible scholar…simply a wife and mother who loves jesus and the word of god but even i can see the error in biblical teaching and the whole lot makes me feel ill.
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Ugh.
Peter, what Rick said. It seems too sketchy and easy to interpret in a variety of ways. Yeah I know it would be hard for them to issue a joint statement. I think my desire is that we need to hear both sides of the story. In situations like this we usually only ever hear one side of the story, I guess I’m proposing that this changes.
Scott, that’s biblical, Galatians 2:11-14.
Rupert, I’m not going to take much more from Ron. I see he has already been banned from another blog, and if he continues his negative comments here he will be banned here as well. Yes, Dutch Sheets is making some good points although I think he is also overstating his case.
Rhea, there is a third explanation which accounts for all the reports without anyone lying: Todd started his “unhealthy relationship on an emotional level” AFTER his wife left him.
Wilma, who has authority over the “apostles”? But there is in fact nothing seriously wrong with Todd’s doctrine, more with the doctrine of those who oppose him who are mostly teaching righteousness by works.
Frank, I too would like to hear both sides of the story. But then that is my natural curiosity speaking. What is actually more helpful is not for the two of them to toss around public accusations blaming the other, but for them to have space for reconciliation in private. Perhaps we should simply stop discussing this.
Peter:
I understand what you’re saying, but at the same time, I don’t know that I really buy it. What I mean is, Todd might have not started this unhealthy emotional relationship until AFTER his wife left him (though it seems that it’s still up in the air who do the the leaving of who), BUT, he was (and is) still married to her….I would STILL call this woman that he’s having (or had) this “emotional relationship” with, “the other woman.” Even if it was Todd’s wife who left him, it’s a pretty bonehead move to get involved with someone else…it doesn’t come across as him wanting to reconcile. And if in the future, it turns out that other allegations that have been fired at Todd are true, then I really can’t blame the his wife for leaving him (assuming that she did). If he were exhibiting inappropriate behaviour, I can understand her deciding to pack up and leave, at least until he gets his act together.
As a woman, even your “third option” for what could be going on would STILL make Todd a liar, in my book.
Why do you claim this is “up in the air”? On the one side, a close friend reports Todd’s personal statement that Shonnah left him, and on the other side we have only speculation – not even the article in The Ledger which implies that Todd started legal proceedings, which is not the same thing.
I agree that what Todd did, apparently in response to his wife leaving him and refusing further contact, was “unhealthy”, and, if you like, “boneheaded”, and does not help towards reconciliation. But it does NOT make him a liar, nor an adulterer. There is no evidence that Todd was “exhibiting inappropriate behaviour” before his wife left him, although of course there were stresses and no doubt neither party was guiltless.
It’s my observation that ALL human beings have something to hide!
We are all sinners – even the ones who are quick to point an accusing finger at someone else – and such accusers are only disciples of Satan – the Chief Accuser.
Such accusers are far more clever than the accused in hiding their own sins.
Only the Perfect should ‘throw stones’!!!!!
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and have a deep desire to become more and more like Christ – but I find myself like Paul in the Bible “doing things I don’t want to do or not doing things I want to do”.
When I sincerely confess my sins He is faithful and just to forgive my sins!!
Only Christ in us makes us stand totally righteous before God our Father.
I certainly DO NOT SUPPORT sin of any kind and I don’t understand everything that folks like Todd Bentley do – but I love Todd Bentley and all those accused – because the work that God has started in them (and in me) HE WILL COMPLETE in due course – even if we seem imperfect for a while!!
Thank you, Gladstone. Indeed none of us are perfect, including me, so none of us should be accusing others.
Peter:
The “still up in the air” comment had to do from other things that I have read from people who appear to be close to Todd.
I think that our difference in opinion over whether this would make Todd a liar or not has a lot to do with the fact that you’re a man and I’m a woman. Overall, I think that women tend to be more emotional, AND, I think that the way that women overall tend to view fidelity within marriage is slightly different than the way that most men do. I do believe that most of my close female friends would agree with me about Todd lying. At the very least, from my perspective, it would appear that he said what he said, the way that he said it, in a way to cover his own rear-end, and that just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Rhea, I could be very sexist and say that it is very typical of emotional women to walk out on their husbands and then blame them, even calling them liars – and then when put on the spot to retract to “the way that he said it”. Please don’t encourage my sexism by feeding me that kind of explanation. Fidelity in marriage requires two people. If the wife is not prepared to be faithful, but leaves and refuses contact with her husband, then she is the one primarily to blame, she doesn’t have a leg to stand on in accusing her husband.
Now I am not suggesting that Shonnah is accusing Todd of anything. She is wisely keeping quiet. But if it is not right for her to throw around accusations it is even less right for you to do so on her behalf.
If Todd has told a lie, please give me evidence for what he has said which is factually untrue and he knew it. If it is just that you are imagining the way that he might have said something and don’t like what you are imagining, please give us a break and stop libelling Todd with that kind of nonsense.
This was revealed to me in June and I sent an email to Todd`s web site warning him that a girl that lead the praise and worship was trying to come between him and his wife and satan had sent her to destroy his ministry.
This is documented and i have the proof.He was warned.
Without wanting to justify Todd, for a man who has been deserted by his wife to find emotional solace with another woman, while unhealthy, is a rather different matter from a man deserting his wife for the other woman.
Do you have any proof he has been deserted?
That is an almighty jump you have made – considering Fresh Fires thought the “other woman” was important enough to change their statement to include her.
Now Johnson is saying it is Todd who is filing for divorce – which starts with legal seperation in Canada, which is exactly what the original article in the Ledger said.
His mentor (Johnson) says he is “abandoning his marriage” while you imply his wife “deserted him”.
I just think the whole thing is so messy we would be best to stop trying to piece it together but just point people to where those involved are making their statements and leave them to make their own judgements.
Arnott syas This is a real opportunity for the church to show some maturity and Christian love. and I do agree, at several levels. But that must involve a genuine analysis on what went wrong and how we can avoid situations like this in the future.
I have the explicit statement from the well known leader Rick Joyner, who I am sure would not lie about this. I repeat what he wrote:
It seems that Joyner’s June information was not from Todd. Now very often the party who is deserted, and has lost hope for a reconciliation, initiates legal proceedings to secure property and visitation rights. So that should not be taken as an indication of guilt for the marriage breakup, although it might be characterised as “abandoning” the marriage as a hopeless case.
I am sure that now various leaders are trying to restore some hope for reconciliation, but this takes a willingness from both parties.
You are right of course that this is messy. That is why I have been reporting significant statements from people like Joyner with little commentary. What I wrote in this post, except for the one explicitly speculative paragraph, is simply unpacking what Joyner wrote.
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Inforamtion on the Knights of Malta. Beware of false prophets and having nothing to do with them.
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/07/23/todd-bentley-rick-joyner-bobby-conner-the-knights-of-malta-connection/
Ron, I am not interested in the Knights of Malta. Even if Rick Joyner is wrong to be involved with them that does not impact on the truthfulness of his account of Todd Bentley.
It saddens me how much hatred there is within the Church towards those we disagree with. Surely this is breaking the second commandment and the spirit of Jesus’ teachings?
Lets have reasoned debate about Lakeland and the teachings not these outpourings of vitriol. I agree with all those that write with compassion for Todd and Shonnah at this difficult time, whatever one’s own view on their theology.
Thank you, Rosalyn.
Rosalyn
We should be praying for the damage to the poor people who went to Florida, hoping for a miracle, just think of the damage to there faith.
And here ye are worrying about Todd’s marriage, really who cares about Todd, did he care when he spewed out his lies, night after night.
I am sure he was very worried about his marriage, as he sat in the bars of Florida getting drunk and cavorting with women and yes you guessed it, I won’t say here, but it will all come out in time.
One last point, the so called apostles (I have no idea who made them apostles, more like Christian mafia) were called in to sort out Todd, as no one knew what to do with him, or what he was really up to. So we await the report from the unofficial apostles or official which ever way you see it.
Each report reveals how vain the people behind this false move of Gad are. I refer to P King etc.
William, if you really care for people whose faith was damaged by going to Florida, you should include among them Todd and Shonnah. Do you really think Todd had time to sit in bars at Lakeland as well as be on stage every night? Don’t you think he would have been recognised? I will not allow this kind of baseless speculation here.
The report of the “apostles” was published on 11th August, and I am about to write a post linking to it.
Who cares about Todd, William?
Jesus cares about Todd. In fact he cared enough that he died for him. Even if he was in bars and cavorting with women, he still died for him and loves him just as much as he loves you, and me and his own Father. Be careful in how you speak.
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When are we going to learn the whole truth about Todd Bentley? We Christians have been deceived. Oh, God, how it hurts. It is so shocking. Is no-one sorry? Do none of the leaders feel some responsibility for the lies and cover-up?
What has happened will do untold damage to the Christian Church.
Helena, why do you want to know the full truth about Todd Bentley? Aren’t he and his wife entitled to some privacy? If he has sinned and makes a public statement of repentance in general terms, why do YOU still need to know “the full truth”? Isn’t it enough that he tells everything to God and to the pastors who are responsible for him? Is it simply that you want to be titillated by details of a sex scandal? I confess that I too would like to know all the details. But my reasons for doing so are human curiosity, not truly because I have any need to know about someone’s private life.
I would like to say a few words. First, I do not understand why many believers think that divorce is the sin of the sins. It is definitely a sin, but pride and arrogance are sins as well – and they can lead to even more deadly consequences for our spiritual life.
Another thing – those who cry they were deceived, weren’t – if they were deceived, they allowed themselves to be deceived. Those who are self-righteous like to trust the arm of flesh, that is why they feel so outraged when they see flesh fail.
Todd is a human – the fact that his marriage failed does not make him worse than those who shake their finger here. If you feel you are better, it means you have no idea yet that it is by the Lord’s mercy you did not fail yet.
May the Lord e merciful to us!
Thank you, Sergei.
I hate to see his wife maligned all because “she left and he didn’t.” Often times the spouse that leaves is the spouse that is doing the right thing. Todd was a guy given to violence, at least in his ministry. How do we know that he wasn’t violent at home? How do we know that she didn’t lay down some clear boundaries that he continually trampled, and finally she’d just had enough.
I have no idea if the above is true or untrue, but I guess I’m just begging for the whole, “who left the home first” game to be laid aside. Who left first is no indicator as to who’s responsible for the damaged relationship. It could be a 50/50 deal, it could be all the wife, or it could be all Todd. We have no way of knowing.
If people who know him admit that it would be difficult to be married to him (prior to the revival, even), then I think it would be wise to give his wife the benefit of the doubt.
Hello Peter,
This is not a comment on this subject more of a thankyou for mediating information (and discussion) on the subject with the gentle wisdom you are aiming for…
Will
Molly, you may be right. But I want to get away from the opposite error that I have seen all over the place, an assumption that it is all his fault and not at all hers. The evidence suggests what is in fact true in most such cases, that there is some fault on both sides for the initial separation – and, more specifically, that Todd’s recent involvement with another woman was the aftermath rather than the cause of the separation.
As for Todd being difficult to live with, in general terms rather than because of any particular sins, that should have been obvious to Shonnah before they married. So perhaps the fault there is a system which encourages Christians to marry young, when they are not mature enough to make good judgments about life partners.
William, thank you.
ergei said;
“Another thing – those who cry they were deceived, weren’t – if they were deceived, they allowed themselves to be deceived. Those who are self-righteous like to trust the arm of flesh, that is why they feel so outraged when they see flesh fail.
Todd is a human – the fact that his marriage failed does not make him worse than those who shake their finger here. If you feel you are better, it means you have no idea yet that it is by the Lord’s mercy you did not fail yet.”
Well spoken……….Amen
Todd practices the calling on of angels, similarly to the ancient practice of gnosticism. He claims to have the special anointing to be assigned angels to minister to people and perform miracles and wonders. He claims that he is visited by William Branham’s angel, which is known to have been a dark source of power.
In addition to this unBiblical and dangerous practice, let us just note that true revival throughout history has always focused on lasting change through sound teaching and bringing people to a heart of repentance and change, love for Christ and obedience to reach the lost and the poor. It is always about restoring something in the Body of Christ, something that we are lacking but it’s never new. It is always something that comes straight from Scripture. Todd’s ministry, on the other hand, focuses on sensationalism and new, new, new. He says it himself all the time. Its all about having a new experience with God. Drunk in the spirit people look exactly like people given over to the spirit of koundalini in Hinduism.
Do you see where we are getting dangerous? Because something is supernatural does not mean that it is from God. Because we say Jesus does not mean that it is from the Lord and Savior we know to have come in the flesh and rose from death. We are not allowed to change the Scriptures, to add to it, or take away from it. When we do, we are in dangerous territory, especially when we are seeking something in the spiritual realm. If something is supernatural we are to be all that much more discerning. Many religions have evidence of the supernatural but only Christ can save us and change us and bring impacting fruit to our lives.
We are to call on Christ, repent and move towards Him every day. Not one of us is infallible but to say that you have special revelation that outdoes what is written in Scripture is blatantly wrong. Todd’s prophetic ministry has overstepped its bounds in this regards. He has taught some things that are absolutely contrary to Scripture. No, I am not pointing my finger at him. Its not my place to say wether he himself is deceived or if he is simply knowingly deceiving, but the Scriptures are clear that nothing should be added to them.
All I am saying is that if you have been hurt or confused by his false teaching, do not look to his separation from Shonnah as an indicator that his ministry is false because we all are human and can stumble even when we are immersed in serving God.
I am only pointing out that you have to test Todd’s words with the Scriptures. (And Joyner’s, Wagner’s, Austen’s, Jacob’s, Ann’s…)
Yes I believe in the supernatural and God speaking through people prophetically- HOWEVER the words that He gives us through “prophets” will never be contrary to Scriptures. Todd has taught enough contrary teachings to be labeled a false teacher.
If you have been damaged by Todd’s teachings or any other of the so-called Latter Rain, New Wave, Apostolic, Morningstar Ministries, etc, you can find support and help in discernment at http://www.letusreason.org, http://www.revivalschool.com and in many other sites. Use the scriptures to test, test, test. God calls us to do it. Stand to Reason is also a humble and powerful ministry that has helped me witness to friends from other religions. They mention Bentley as well. They are at str.org.
Pray for guidance from the true Holy Spirit as I am not an authority to tell you anything. All I can do is point you in the direction of seeking Truth through testing with the Word. If it holds up then embrace it with all your heart. If it doesnt…run (and take others with you)!
Thank you for reading if you got this far. I know it was a lot but it was really on my heart. God bless.
have you who are so concerned ever walked in the same
path,or shoes as BROTHer Todd and family . i have. they need prayer more now then ever .LOVE never fails
God is Faithful to restore [this is atime to stand in for
the body of Christ letthem see our love for each other and leave the rest to the mercy of GOD regards
harrie
Thanks, Harrie.
ShieldedByFaith, I somewhat reluctantly retrieved your comment from my spam box. I am not thereby endorsing the sites you link to.
I do not know that Branham’s angel was “a dark source of power”; I accept that Branham in his later years strayed into false teaching but his healing ministry was genuinely from God. I have seen no evidence that Todd “has taught some things that are absolutely contrary to Scripture”. But I do agree with this:
Indeed. I believe that, despite his marital problems and even if he has clearly sinned in them, Todd’s ministry was (and, if he repents and is restored, will be) to a very large extent genuinely from God.
There is dispute amongst Christians about whether Todd Bentley and his promoters are actually from God.
We have been warned about False Christs and Antichrists.
1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come.
Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.
When the Bible warns of “false Christs” (eg. Matt 24:24) it could be a metaphor as well as physical people, and the consequences of both are identical.
A “false Christ” could be a SYSTEM OF TEACHING and METHODS OF MINISTRY that misrepresent the true Jesus Christ.
Many church people emphasise physical experience as more important than all the counsel of God written in the Bible.
Because of this they may be easily deceived by counterfeits from “the angel of light”:
2 Cor 11:13-15 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
Here are 6 examples of false Christs represented in false religions of today:
1. The “New Age” / Hindu “divine Christ of enlightenment”.
Google “divine Christ of enlightenment”.
2. Roman Catholic “Eucharist Jesus” who is converted back to flesh when the priest casts a spell on the communion wafer. Google “Eucharist Jesus”
3. “Charismatic Christians” following a “Kundalini Jesus” who entertains them with sensations, manifestations, slain, drunkenness, angelic visitations, etc. – see http://www.newchristian.org.uk/kundalini.html, also Google “Kundalini Jesus”
4. Wicca Jesus (occult Jesus) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wicca
5. “Prosperity Jesus” who “graces” you with sensual indulgence and worldy prosperity. See http://www.christian-witness.org/aog/hillsong3.html also Google “prosperity Jesus”.
6. “Flexi-Jesus”. This is where people make up their own Jesus to suit anything else they want to do, eg. homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, “situation ethics” morals, etc.
It is simplistic to say we can have all have unity by believing in Jesus. We can’t even trust visible “manifestations” of Jesus, as it could be the devil in disguise (angel of light 2Cor 11:14)
A white gown and glowing blonde wig and speaking in encouraging tones will be an easy trick.
It won’t be good enough to “throw a dice and pick a Jesus” because of the warning:
Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
We follow the TRUE Jesus Christ by following ALL the BIBLE COUNSEL and teaching WITHOUT COMPROMISE, using a reasonable, in context, interpretation.
Bill, if you are suggesting that Todd Bentley was not preaching the true Jesus, you and I must agree to disagree.
I have read many of the posts and it seems to me that passions are running high. What I would be interested to know is how many of those who are writing are living lives that are sin free!!
Kim, I can answer your question: none of us! John 8:7.
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!! ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ABOVE ANY SORT OF SIN. WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE?? ONLY JESUS AND HE ALWAYS FORGIVES THE REPENTANT!!
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!! ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ABOVE ANY SORT OF SIN. WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE?? ONLY JESUS AND HE ALWAYS FORGIVES THE REPENTANT!!
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!! ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ABOVE ANY SORT OF SIN. WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE?? ONLY JESUS AND HE ALWAYS FORGIVES THE REPENTANT!!
HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE!! ABSOLUTELY NO-ONE IS ABOVE ANY SORT OF SIN. WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE?? ONLY JESUS AND HE ALWAYS FORGIVES THE REPENTANT!!
“Without wanting to justify Todd, for a man who has been deserted by his wife to find emotional solace with another woman, while unhealthy, is a rather different matter from a man deserting his wife for the other woman. It is certainly not “adultery”. I note that Rick’s words are carefully chosen to show that Todd is not denying a non-adulterous relationship with another woman after the separation.”
Actually, it is adultery. He’s still married.
Jay, it is possible for a married man to have a relationship of friendship with a woman without adultery being involved. Although Todd has admitted that his relationship was inappropriate, there has been no evidence or admission that it went beyond friendship and finding emotional solace, no evidence of anything physical happening. This is not adultery, at least not proved or admitted to be this.
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The Blessing of the Church Fathers
Paul comments: There are not many Fathers among you. Well the reason being, it is a tough no thank you job. Recently there has been a steady exposure of many that have fallen short and found themselves in the sin spotlight. Being a all eyes on you ministry leader is tough. There are some unbelievers that do nothing but look for faults to discredit the church. One, Christian Talk radio show, blasts that they knew all the time, and the incident gives them the Holy Spirits’ approval that they are Gods’ warning and will spend the rest of the year reiterating the same gossip to keep there shows alive.
Unless, you have been there don’t think you have a clue concerning the battles of the Father. We need Fathers who will stay steady and never relent. Have compassion for the Body to protect and restore.
The task of restoration is also tough for the one needing to be restored.
Why, because it is not gained easily. It is a slow, reality here a little, realization of truth there a little.
For those that require deliverance, that is also often not won in a day but is a battle to continue to disarm the deposit of God so that Satan will not have to deal with a church with power..
Often, the battle of those that need recovery fall on the Fathers. The attacks from questionable believers that rage their arms, How dare you help this sinner. And have some how forgotten that they stand solely on the forgiveness of the Father by the blood of Jesus, That by which all of us stands or falls.
Also, Maintaining the thin line of federal Law requirements for confidentiality, with those that always want the facts so that they can play judge and jury. Still they, don’t have a clue.
Then there are also the demoniac assaults and dealing with witchcraft. It’s all a part.
It’s interesting that the Old testament closes with a blessing and a curse.
Turning the hearts of the Fathers to the children, and children to the Fathers. Children of God, please rather pray for the Fathers. Take note how blessed you are to have the few that tread on!
Cynthia, thank you.
Rick Joyner is a leader in the Charismatic Church. Enough said.
Todd Bentley hit someone with Colon Cancer in the stomach, as well kicking someone in the face with a biker boot. Enough said.
Rob Hughes considers the word “Charismatic” to be sufficient ground to reject what someone says without giving them a fair hearing. Enough said.
i accept we all sin and this is our moral inheritance from adam but my whole issue about todd is that everyone is jumping onto the issues of his private life.i was concerned with the public preaching being unsound. where was the evidence of the fruit of the spirit among the showiness of the gifts of the spirit? the bible must be adhered to in what is preached and we must judge what is portrayed in the name of Jesus The Christ and the Holy Spirit and our wonderful God Jehovah Abba or Father God… Alien abductions Angels with the propfecy of Jesus appearing live in person on june 9th…there was certainly a right to ask for accountability in these things….come on here folks dont get sidetracked about Todd’s moral failure…keep it to what he was teaching……………..dangerous…..I want to see God work a miracle of repentance and restoration in his life but it seems he is only interested in getting back on the stage into the public arena….been there and believe me….as a christian I would prefer anonimity and a gentle relationship of depth with my Lord.
Wilma, what was prophesied for June 9th last year? I don’t think anyone suggested Jesus’ visible second coming. He is of course always present when two or three, and all the more two or three thousand, gather in his name. So he was there on June 9th and that was not a false prophecy.
Meanwhile you may prefer anonymity and “a gentle relationship of depth with my Lord”. But if those whom God calls to preach and minister in other ways also prefer these and so reject their call, how is God’s work in the world going to be done?
Dear Brother in Christ
Greetings from Pakistan.
I am from Pakistan. I have studied your web site, and I found it the most wonderful site to get right to the True Word of God. I found that all your material is full of knowledge concerning development of religious faith. Living in Pakistan we Christians is to face many obstacles to get the access to the word of God. Most of the people in Pakistan are not capable to understand the English language and they are hungry of the God’s words. It’s because our national language is Urdu.
My suggestion for you is to create your material in my language of Urdu and Punjabi also. It will bring lots of blessings of the Word of God for the Pakistani and Indian Urdu and Punjabi speaking people. For that purpose I as a translator will bring your material into Urdu languages and into Punjabi language as well. Although it will take your low expenses as well, as fund for the Word of God to reach out to the deserving people. As a translator I will take the expenses that will be spending just for the Word.
Didn’t anyone catch on when Stacey Campbell was shaking her head like a lunatic while she was prophesying over Todd Bentley( see the video here http://www.isthisgod.com ) that his favor was going to increase and his anointing would increase and within 1 month he left his wife, married his intern and was promptly restored to ministry? And all the time Rick Joyner was looking on in approval? They have absolutely no discernment! And this angel talk is nonsense, you never see anyone in the new testament talk like this. Todd needs someone to disciple him that has real spiritual authority like TD Jakes,Ray Comfort or Marilyn Hickey, these guys over him are a joke