I have no time to write much tonight about Todd Bentley or anything else. So I will give little more than a couple of links.
Dan Curant writes about the Broccoli Revival. His main point is simple: broccoli grows better when the first sprout in the plant is cut off. Similarly, he predicts that the “fall” of Todd will lead to even greater outpouring worldwide. He concludes:
The number one lesson might be, Don’t be offended, find the good, and keep on keeping on pursuing Him.
It’s only going to get better!
Richard Steel writes that the Florida healing outpouring revival is for global evangelism. Certainly it should be, and he correctly writes:
It is important to remember that this has been a sovereign move of God, and not about any one person.
I would just like to say that growing up broccoli was one of my favourite foods (and still is).
Clearly, I was one weird child 😛
I’m thankful that regardless of our circumstances or situations, God is still able to bring good things out of them.
“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.” Romans 8:28, NASB
Regardless of our feelings toward Todd personally, or his ministry, or the outpouring in Florida, at least we can all rejoice that somehow, someone, something good will come out of this for those who love God.
I like broccoli too, so long as it’s been boiled 🙂
Speaking of boiled, here’s what a ‘Renewal Pastor’ wrote on his church blog today. Click on my name and you’ll link over the my blog where I’ve included this statement in main body of a post. Here’s his statement:
“I for one hope we play this out just as publicly as we played out the endorsement of Todd Bentley. Our repentance should be as public as our proclamation of revival. Let’s go on God TV and tell the world about our failure, our weakness and our courage to face problems openly and without fear. Todd will find forgiveness from his Christian family. The overseers will find understanding from the body of Christ. And we should expect to find them all open and transparent. I will have more to say about this…
The credibility of renewal Christianity is at stake in this matter. If we move to a posture of embattled victims or if we claim that we are unjustly persecuted we trivialize the real issue and empower our critics. I am decidedly committed to seeing openness and honesty in how this is played out.
Let those who told us to trust the revival and to trust Todd Bentley give public accounting for how this happened. Let those who were healed and saved be the public witness to the validity of the outpouring. Let the news media have as complete access to our pain and failure as we gave them to our multitudes and success.
Let us be fearless ministers of the truth. Let us be humble in the face of accusation. Let us be examined in the light of day. And by all means let us devote ourselves as much to the care and support of Todd’s wife and children as we are to the restoration of Todd.
But first let time pass and let the whole truth come out. Ugly or beautiful, let us face the reality about ourselves. Our credibility is on the line. Are we a movement devoted to the glory of Christ in the earth, or are we a sideshow full of caricatured pedagogues? Let God be true and every man a liar.”
Alan Hawkins
New Life City
Albuquerque NM
i’ll be curious to see…
i think that broccoli concept should apply across the board to leadership… but sometimes it seems not to…
For cynical observers of this revival, as so many millions of our brothers and sisters are, then I would consider the post about brocolli to be frivolous.
I do not think that “It is only going to get better!” is remotely helpful to those people who are hurtng because of what has happened.
“The leader got taken out, we must be on the right track!” is a poorly timed sentiment, even if it is accidental, which I believe it is.
Firstly the was an issue with the marriage but there was no-one else involved. Now there is someone else involved but only on an emotional level. The story is not clear and the picture is blurred, which makes analysis of the future or God’s purposes quite difficult.
The Brocolli analogy may prove to be correct – but I don’t think the timing is right.
Sorry, that first sentence should have read:
“If I was a cynical observer of this revival, as so many millions of our brothers and sisters are, then I would consider the post about brocolli to be frivolous.”
I rewrote it in the first person but did not change the first bit.
From the original link:
Right. Sometimes it’s hard to separate charismania from satire.
Rhea, thanks.
Scott, thanks for the statement you copied here. In some ways I agree, but in other ways the last thing Todd, Shonnah and the children need at this time is to expose their lives to massive publicity. I would like to see a clear statement of repentance from Todd, without going into details, but otherwise he should be allowed to rebuild his life in private.
Roger, you may well be right!
Blue, there are people who will be cynical whatever is said or not said. There are of course Shonnah and the children who are hurting, and this might not help them but is not as unhelpful as Pastor Hawkins’ suggestion that their private life should be aired on God TV. The people I am really concerned for are those I know who believe that this is a real move of God but are now confused and perhaps wondering if they were wrong all the time. I want to reassure these people that they were not wrong, that this really is from God, and that the loss of one leader does not change that.
How should we apply 1 Tim 5:20 in this situation?
I don’t think Pastor Hawkins is saying every element of what Todd has done should be aired on God TV – but that all the people involved should go back to the people they have been preaching to and be open about the issues and their failures in the process.
I think it is aimed more at the people who put him there rather than Todd himself.
Blue, I think the instructions of 1 Timothy 5:20 are for those in authority over the sinning elder, not for ordinary Christians. Those in authority over Todd have spoken, and maybe there is more for them to say, but that is for them to judge and they need to consider how to protect the innocent parties. I understand from this comment that at least one of those people, Bill Johnson, has already spoken publicly on this matter, although I haven’t yet listened to the podcast and so don’t know what he has said. But I note that Paul does not tell Timothy to talk about his “failures” in choosing these elders who have sinned; the responsibility for this is with the sinners.
Blue, regarding your 5:44 PM comment about what Pastor Hawkins meant, you were right on the money. That’s exactly what he was saying.
Btw, have you seen this Youtube of Bentley on stage with his children early on at Lakeland? I almost couldn’t bear to watch this. It’s only a couple of minutes long. And I’m not posting this to be a slam either.
Lord, have mercy.
Scott
But I note that Paul does not tell Timothy to talk about his “failures” in choosing these elders who have sinned; the responsibility for this is with the sinners.
But Paul does warn a few verses later “Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in the sins of others. Keep yourself pure.”
And from that people are asking serious questions of all those who heavily endorsed Todd’s ministry, especially those who laid hands on him publicly, just a few weeks before this mess blew open.
People want to see some strength, some truth, some repentance and some humility. They are getting that in some quarters, but in others people who endorsed Todd, even from the platform, are now fudging the issues and making the situation worse.
Scott, this video is of course very sad in retrospect, but clearly comes from a time when Todd was trying to rebuild a family life which was under strain. I hope he is now again trying to, and this process should not be hindered.
Blue, Timothy is clearly expected to be discerning about who he “ordains”. But he does not know their secret sins and cannot be held responsible for them.
peter, give it up.
you’re a smart fellow. see this for what it is– a guy who discovers himself over a period of a year or so, in front of thousands of people, and comes out the other end of it an average person, just like you and me. no special magic, no special righteousness, no special calling– just a hunger to be loved and adored by an audience as he works his way through things.
if healing comes from a smack in the head, he’d have been better off smacking his own head, just like you and i do, when we have a moment of insight.
this boy has stepped on it, big time.
why do you insist something miraculous has happened here?
peace–
scott
Scott, lots of miraculous things have happened at Lakeland, some of which I have seen with my own eyes on TV. There may also have been some faking (not necessarily by Todd) and some hype. But it is impossible to deny that God has been at work – unless you want to attribute God’s work to demons and risk the unforgiveable sin.
peter–
somehow i suspect my schema for ‘miracle’ is much narrower than yours. what is your understanding of ‘miracle?’
scott
Look back at history. Many men with powerful ministries have fallen by the wayside.
Read “God at War” by Gregory Boyd. His description of the effects of the spirit world in biblical terms helps understand some of the battles.
Scott, I am thinking primarily in terms of medically unexplained healings. I know there is no clear medical attestation, for reasons of confidentiality. But some things seen on TV cannot be covered up or faked.
Indeed, PWCMJC, many men and women with powerful ministries have fallen into sin, while under immense spiritual and natural pressure, but that by no means invalidates their ministries. Some of them have repented and been restored. Let’s hope and pray that that happens with Todd.
peter–
confidentiality may be involved, but i’m from missouri, and any medical healing miracles claimed must be proven by evidence, or else they are alleged miracles. houdini and many other snake oil salesmen and tent preachers have made their way in the world by feeding on people’s hunger for miracles in their lives. each of the alleged miracles in todd’s show is alleged until proven with evidence. why would you accept less than rigorous edidential proof?
the real question is, why do you need these kinds of miracles in your life? is that the only important way you see a ‘jesus-like’ god presence, is through miracles?
peace–
scott
Such as what exactly? It should be a simple matter of posting links to the relevant youtube videos.
I saw many claims – I saw exactly zero evidence.
Scott and Chris, the miracles are real and I don’t see any point in trying to prove them to critics who wouldn’t accept them even if I did. Let’s start with the resurrection of Jesus. Did that happen? Or won’t you let that be more than “alleged” until you see it on Youtube? If that miracle could take place, the one who was raised can also use Todd Bentley to perform miracles.
Scott, it was you, in comment 87320, who first mentioned miracles in this thread. So who is it who sees the need for miracles here? Not me.
Scott and Chris, the miracles are real and I don’t see any point in trying to prove them to critics who wouldn’t accept them even if I did. Let’s start with the resurrection of Jesus. Did that happen? Or won’t you let that be more than “alleged” until you see it on Youtube? If that miracle could take place, the one who was raised can also use Todd Bentley to perform miracles.
That come across as a bit of a cheap shot Peter.
Jesus showed Thomas his hands to help him believe.
Luke was a physician who verified he was alive again and wrote two books about it!
It should not be too complicated. If someone is healed then find a medical person who can verify it.
If many healings have occured in Lakeland then there should be many accounts of healings and many verifications of healings. Surely they go hand in hand?
People have the right to ask for evidence – it didn’t worry Jesus (he showed Thomas what he needed to see), otherwise anyone could claim any healing and no-one could have any discernment for risk of being “critical”.
Surely the answer to those who want to see evidence is evidence, because if the healings are genuine then there should be evidence, not writing them off as critics. How can we know the outpouring by its “fruit” if people can’t prove any fruit exists?
I ask these things as someone who is open to Lakeland being a move of God, who prays for healing & who knows people who have been healed by God through prayer.
Fair enough, Blue. But you know from your father’s experience the pitfalls involved in getting medical verification of healing. As I just suggested on another thread, maybe Todd needed at Lakeland someone like your father, a retired doctor who is not afraid to put his name and reputation on the line to give evidence of miraculous healings – and who because he is retired has nothing to fear from the medical authorities.
But then people would claim if the doctor was a christian they were part of the scam! Which proves your point!!!
But my experience is that all medics care about is if people have got better or not. They would never claim a miracle, but enough “unexplained” recoveries would have been good evidence. If a cancer has gone let’s see the before and after scan results. If the tumour has gone let’s see the new x-rays etc etc.
Yes Peter, we are praying for restoration. We remember David, Jonah, and others. Perhaps even Thomas could be included, but not exactly parallel.
Thank you for your comments on miracles. The failure of a leader does not retroactively reverse the salvation and other healings that have occurred.
Some of the bloggers need to read again what attracted people to Jesus when he was on earth. Miracles!! So is Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever? Or did he change his mind?
Peter – Blue has dealt with the wider point, but what I was actually questioning was this specific claim of yours:
This is vague as ‘People have said’. What specific things have been seen on TV that cannot be covered up or faked?
Chris, I do not remember the details of the healings I saw, and the even clearer examples seen, including actually at Lakeland, by people I know well and trust. I just know that there was plenty of convincing evidence for people who kept their eyes open and did not believe a priori that healing is impossible.
peter–
to conflate jesus’ resurrection with todd’s ‘miracles’ is to deliberately sideline any issue of evidence. i’ve seen todd in action, and governor, he’s no jesus. or ted kennedy either.
i mentioned you miracles, and you bit. so i’ll stick with the question you dodge, and unpack it a bit: why do you personally need miracles in your life? what is that hunger? how have you been thwarted in something, that miracles give you satisfaction? why isn’t the world we live in amazing enough? why does it seem to require miracles?
peace–
scott
There is a qualitative difference between this:
And the passages that Blue alludes to above or some of the passages in the Epistles. Compare and contrast the above with 2 Peter 1 – Peter the Apostle gave evidence. None of the claimed resurrections in this revival had names, eyewitness etc. If the Resurrection of Jesus was attested to in exactly the same way – Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 would be reduced to making vague claims.
And just because I don’t believe in some of the wilder claims that have been made about this ‘revival’, it doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in miraculous healings.
Scott, I do not need miracles in my life. What makes you think I do? Why do you beat your wife?
Chris, I also “don’t believe in some of the wilder claims that have been made about this ‘revival’”. But I do believe that there have been a significant number of medically inexplicable healings at Lakeland.
Firstly I want to thank Peter for his gracious and even handed comments about the Lakeland outpouring. I am certain it has been a move of God.
Secondly concerning miracles; I live within 10 miles of Edinburgh and am a Church of Scotland minister. I have witnessed verfiable healings that have been a direct result of the Spirit’s moving at Lakeland and have seen an increase in results in our own prayer ministry since receiving at an impartation meeting in Glasgow. What has happened to Todd and Shonnah’s family is tragic – they need our prayers. But Scott Gray, you will not have to look far to find people who have been healed. Whether you can find a medical practioner to satisfy your skepticism is another matter. God doesn’t heal to impress us, he does so to share his love and advance the Kingdom.
Once again, many thanks,
Mark Nicholas.
Thank you, Mark.
peter—
tired old fallacious non sequiturs. i’m disappointed. you’ve asked me for evidence about your position, and in order to do that, i have to wade through pages and pages of your posts and comments. it’ll take me at least a month to do. which i’m willing to do, if something good might come of it for you and for me. but not if your level of engagement is to be argumentative fallacies.
so the short, gentle response is, ‘have a nice day.’ a more rigorous response is yours for the asking. but only if you’re prepared to engage authentically, and in depth.
mark n—
you’ve dangled a couple of interesting hooks, so let me respond:
on skepticism: my healthy skepticism lets me lead a happy, interesting life filled with rich relationships with others and a rational (and i hope effective) response to injustices i perceive. it allows me to appreciate diversity, to avoid squandering scarce resources, to participate fully in chosen communities, and to make pretty good choices about things. it lets me engage with great joy, in a world both neat and clean and orderly, and chaotic and dirty and messy.
i recommend it highly as a way of moving through life.
which is not to be confused with someone who is cynical, which i ain’t. a skeptic is convinced of the truth of an event by evidence. barring evidence, a skeptic is convinced of some truth, and perhaps some value of an event by an eye witness account; correlativeness, non-collaborativeness, and first hand experience withstanding. barring that, a skeptic is convinced of some value of a position regarding an event by compelling personal stories about the event.* a cynic has made one’s mind up already, and no amount of evidence, witness, or story telling is going to convince them of the truth, or value, of the event.
you can choose not to engage with skeptics, or cynics for that matter, if you wish, but if that’s your decision, you need to rethink your evangelism paradigm.
on healings, prayer improvements, and the like: you’ve used the word ‘result,’ which implies ‘an old configuration of conditions before the event’ have changed in some fashion to a ‘new configuration of conditions after the event.’ as you can imagine, this skeptic wants to ask these questions: ‘what evidence leads to your conclusion that something has changed in response to the event?’ barring that, ‘what compelling stories are being told about the event by you, and by others in your faith community?’ barring that, ‘what feelings have changed for you as a result of the event?’ again, you can choose not to engage with a skeptic about these questions, but rethink your evangelism paradigm if that’s your choice.
peace—
scott
*this is my disappointment with peter’s response. he may never have evidence to convince my of the truth of any of the lakeland healing claims. my follow up questions ask for compelling stories about the changes the events have precipitated in peter’s life. fallacious responses indicate an unwillingness to engage in any authentic response. you can’t convince a skeptic on anything of truth or value that way.
Scott, I have waited to reply to you because I wanted time to think about this and write without rushing.
The issue that I responded to rather negatively before is that you presumed to know about my thoughts, when you suggested that I “personally need miracles in [my] life”. I find this offensive as well as untrue. This approach I am afraid has not encouraged me to share my personal feelings on this matter at the moment. I may do so later.
If you choose to be a sceptic, so be it. I can understand the attractions of your lifestyle. The only problem I see is that you can have no hope for the future. Now if you were an atheist you could retort that there is anyway no hope. But if you believe there may be a God, something like the Christian one, who may be able to give you eternal life, then how can you be satisfied with that possibility being dangled before you and you not doing anything about it but just being sceptical? So as a sceptic you should not be satisfied but should be continually enquiring about the truth.
The problem is that the truth about God is not of the kind that can be found through collecting evidence of miracles etc. These may help some people, but Jesus wisely said that some people “will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead” (Luke 16:31, TNIV).
But if you want evidence that God heals today, let’s look away from Lakeland to this story from blogger Phil Whittall. His church published a newsletter, which you can read by clicking on the images in this post, of testimonies of healing verified by a retired medical doctor – who is also the father of blogger Blue, with a hint of amber who commented above. Perhaps you would like to look at these testimonies and see how you would react to them. Are you prepared to accept the possibility that they might be genuine?
peter–
thanks for responding. like you, i need thinking time between thoughtful and challenging comments. if you keep this thread open, i’ll get back to you soon.
peace–
scott
peter–
i’m still reading and talking with others about the premise that ‘healing miracles occur.’ i’ve been rereading some of your posts and comments, and talking with other christians who believe that healing miracles do occur, and i want make sure i understand the paradigm correctly. i think it works like this:
1. healing miracles occur.
2. there must be a causative agent for a healing miracle to occur.
3. this causative agent must be an entity who has the appropriate power to make a healing miracle occur.
4. the only entities who have this appropriate power are god and satan.
5. there are no other entities who have this appropriate power.
6. therefore, when a healing miracle occurs, it must be caused by god or satan. there are no other causes.
does this sequence of reasoning outline your belief regarding healing miracles and their cause? if this is not the reasoning sequence you believe in, what is the reasoning sequence you believe in? where have i got your understanding wrong?
again, i’m still researching the first premise, ‘healing miracles occur.’
peace–
scott
Thanks, Scott. Yes, your reasoning makes sense. I’m not sure that I agree with #4 that Satan has any real power to heal. But since he and the demons who serve him have some power to afflict humans, they also have the power to stop afflicting and so apparently to end sickness etc. I might also suggest that some apparent healing may be caused psychosomatically by the person being healed, a change in their attitude causing a real relief of symptoms, similar to what doctors know as the placebo effect. But there is a class of healings which has been reported, “creative miracles” such as new eyes, which I believe only God is able to do.