Todd Bentley back at Lakeland from Friday

When it was announced last week that Todd Bentley was taking a short break from his series of outpouring meetings at Lakeland, some people seemed to conclude that he would not be back, that this was the end of the Lakeland outpouring and even of Todd’s ministry. For example, Dan Curant (who has a helpful blog mostly about Todd and healing which I just discovered, including this transcript of Todd clearly preaching the gospel, and this testimony of his own partial healing) commented, without hostility, that

Todd deserves to live the rest of his life in obscurity and peace.

Even I was expecting that Todd would be taking a break of a month or so – and that I would not be blogging any more about him, at least for some time, after my last post.

But you can’t keep a good man down. This has just been announced:

Todd Bentley back at Lakeland from July 18th

Also there will be

a special one-off Healing Revival with Todd Bentley [in] Louisville, Kentucky on 17 July

And all of this will be broadcast live, and streamed to the Internet, by God TV.

So Todd is taking a break of barely a week. I would have expected him to want a longer break, at least for the sake of his family. But I suppose he is feeling under the same compulsion to continue his ministry that the Apostle Paul felt:

For when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, since I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!

1 Corinthians 9:16 (TNIV)

0 thoughts on “Todd Bentley back at Lakeland from Friday

  1. Wow.

    In two successive posts we have Todd Bentley just like Jesus and then just like Paul. He must be really, really, really, really, really, really awesome holy.

    Think much of him? This is why we call it Bentleyanity.

    And “preach the gospel?” C’mon man.

    Your clear, even-handed, and unbiased voice is a nice change from those that discuss Todd and do not say enough positive things.

  2. Peter,
    Quite honestly, you and I can debate whether Todd Bentley and others are false prophets endlessly. But we have our opinions there. I think more meaningful dialogue would be for us to ask the question of how we do know when false prophets come onto the scene. So I ask you, what is your criteria for discerning whether a teacher is false or not?

  3. TC, I can’t help loving the thought of Al Mohler and all the other learned professors getting the Bam! treatment and lining up on the floor, with the help of a knee if necessary. But of course that isn’t going to happen. More likely is something like when he visited near to Southwestern last week, as reported on your blog.

  4. I wasn’t going to make any more comments here, but the world needs to know about this:

    What’s happened is some genius (from the UK) sent Todd a false testimony of a resurrection which Todd presents on God TV as being verified. What’s more, there is a message encoded in the story saying “Let me see if you verify this Todd or just publish this lie” !

    You can check it out on YouTube here:

    The fabricated testimony is still on Todd’s website here:

    http://www.freshfire.ca/index.php?Id=&Act=show_testimony_details&pid=8&post_cat=Healing&tpid=4331&bid=959

    (Although I expect it will disappear pretty quickly now. I have grabbed screen shots for “evidence”).

    What can we learn:

    Firstly, Todd presents the story as verified. That is not the case. The author was never contacted. Todd either believes that it has been verified or is knows full well that it hasn’t been. I suspect the latter and that he’s deliberately telling lies.

    Secondly, this casts doubt on all the other stories Todd has given. They probably haven’t been verified either and could be false or exaggerated.

    Thirdly, we see Toddd “manifest” on the first video, between 5:30 and 5:50. As he’s about to read the fabricated story, Todd is seemingly affected by something and laughs, grunts, and bends over repeatedly. He says “I feel the glory”.

    I find this particularly sad. God has nothing to do with a fake testimony, and there’s no glory in a lie. God can’t be tricked. So either (1) Todd is conciously faking his manifestations, (2) Todd’s subconcious is very deceived and is generating the manifestations, or (3) Todd’s manifestations are demonic.

    Option (2) is very unlikely, and option (3) seems illogical – why would the enemy give credence to a known lie that will be exposed.

    So my money is on option (1). Todd is putting on a religious freak-show and will do whatever it takes to keep the audience entertained, filling the seats and bringing in the money. He is a con-man who cares not for the truth.

    If Todd is a prophet with a hotline to God, how come he was taken in by this? The real glory, which I feel, is in the exposing of a Todd as a fraudster which hopefully will bring about his repentance.

  5. CharismaticSceptic, if I understand you, you claim that someone set out to deliberately deceive Todd, and succeeded in doing so. And who do you condemn? The deceiver or the deceived? That is, if the testimony is actually a lie, which has also not been verified. The guy who made these videos is PUBLICLY CLAIMING to be a liar, that he sent a pack of lies to Todd! But which is his lie, that the teacher was raised from the dead or that he wrote the letter? Why should I believe anything in the titles on that video?

  6. Chadwick, you ask for my “criteria for discerning whether a teacher is false or not”. The ones I use are not mine but biblical ones, which can be summarised by 1 Corinthians 12:3 and 1 John 4:1-6. Todd clearly says “Jesus is Lord” and acknowledges him as the incarnate Son of God. That is enough to prove that he is not of the devil. It does not prove that he is perfect in his methods or teaching, and I have never claimed that he is. But if he is doing God’s work but imperfectly, his Christian brothers and sisters should not condemn him but should correct him in love.

  7. Peter,

    The author of the video set out to test whether Todd is actually verifying testimonies by submitting a false one. I don’t have a problem with that as he has admitted his actions. How else can we can check that Todd is doing what he claims? I would be concerned if he hadn’t confessed, but in this case he’s been open and transparent and exposed Todd’s deception. That is commendable.

    I don’t condemn the deceiver any more than I would condemn an undercover policeman or journalist seeking to expose wrongdoing.

    You don’t need to believe the video titles, just look at the testimony on Todd’s website and note the hidden message. Do you honestly believe that the story is true and that is a coincidence? Also note that the author calls himself “Ivor Biggin” !! It’s an obvious fabrication that Todd claimed was genuine and verified.

    As I said, if Todd is what he and his supporters claim, how come he was deceived, and how come he manifested?

  8. OK, CharismaticSceptic, what if we accept for the sake of argument that “Ivor Biggin” set out to deceive Todd and Todd’s researchers tried to verify the story. They would have contacted “Ivor”, and presumably “Ivor” would have sent them fabricated evidence to back up his story. I can only guess how much effort “Ivor” might have put into this deception. Faked medical records would probably have been easy. So would a fake report on a website apparently from a local newspaper. “Ivor” could presumably have passed himself off as a doctor in an e-mail or by telephone if he had wanted. There is of course a limit to how much verification Todd’s researchers could do from thousands of miles away. But we have no indication, beyond the unclear claims of an admitted deceiver, that they did not make reasonable efforts to verify this claim.

    Manifestations of the kind you mention are by no means a guarantee of the truth of what is going on. In fact they may be an indication of some inner conflict. Perhaps in this case the Holy Spirit was trying to warn Todd that this testimony was dubious. If so, Todd, who is only human, ignored the warning. Well, only one man who has ever lived has always perfectly followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

  9. Peter, I have been following your blog for sometime now, and have participating in previous discussions. I found myself agreeing with a good many things that you said, but on this Todd Bentley issue, I see a deep separation. I have to wonder if you are looking at all the facts or do you just have a great hope that God is still moving somewhere and find yourself willing to simply take what you can get.

    It saddens me to see so many people fall lure to Todd Bentley, but someone of your talent and skill, I thought surely would be involved in the fight against Todd.

  10. Peter,

    if I understand you, you claim that someone set out to deliberately deceive one Todd Bentley and then Todd Bentley set out to deliberately deceive thousands, and both succeeded in doing so. And who do you condemn? The deceiver (of one) or the deceiver (of many)? That is, if the video of Todd saying he verified this testimony is real, which has also not been verified. Todd, the guy in these videos is PUBLICLY CLAIMING to be a prophet, to heal people and to verify stories of resurrection, but he told a pack of lies to thousands! But which is his lie, that he verified this story or that he heals or that he is a prophet or that he once claimed to be visited by a lady angel called Emma? Why should I believe anything that Todd says on any video?

    Peter, in your last post you’re spot on, only one man ever perfectly followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Maybe we should try following that man, and not Todd? Maybe?

  11. Pingback: iamhealed.net » Blog Archive » Why, Todd Bentley DOES preach the Gospel

  12. No, Joel, I do not have a hope that God is moving somewhere, I have faith that he is, and that somewhere is Lakeland and whatever comes out of it. Why on earth or in heaven should I fight against Todd? What God is doing through him is wonderful. I might as well fight against God. I just fail to understand why there is such irrational hostility against him, from believers like you, unless it comes from the enemy himself.

  13. Arnold, you completely misunderstand me. The scenario which I accepted “for the sake of argument” is that “someone set out to deliberately deceive one Todd Bentley” and that Todd was in fact deceived, and unintentionally passed on false information to thousands.

    Todd says that the testimony was verified. The pseudonymous self-confessed deceiver “Ivor Biggin” says that it was not. That is one person’s word against another. Scripture tells us not even to consider an accusation for which there are not two or three witnesses.

    I follow Jesus Christ and his faithful, if sometimes imperfect, servants including Todd.

  14. Peter,
    You seem to want it both ways. So Todd Bentley has confessed Jesus is Lord and has said he was incarnate- but anyone can do lip service. Do you think Jim Jones would have ever been ordained as a minister if he didn’t have that same lip service. So would you say the same about Jim Jones as you are saying about Todd Bentley?

    We can not know the heart- or whether or not Bentley when he gives lip servive if he truly means it from his heart. But if you do agree that he is caught up in his flesh in these stories about his visits to the Third Heaven and his anglic encounters- which by the way if he really did have them he has had more encounters of that kind in 2000 years of church history.

    How can you acknowledging that many of those stories come from his flesh, yet at the same time endorse him as a minister? Have you lost sight of the fact that ministers are to be held into higher account? This is absolutely absurd.

    It sounds like you arguing the same thing that people argued about William Branham. They say that Branham was wrong in denying the Trinity, teaching that he was Elijah, teaching that he was the angel to the Latter Day Church of Laodicea among the many other false prophecies that he spoke- but he walked in a great power that had to be of God. God takes false prophecy very seriously. A prophet was said to be false if they presumed to speak one thing in the name of the Lord that was not true. In the Old Testament, they were stoned for that. Yet today people like Bentley echo many things in the name of the Lord that you yourself as his supporter acknowledge are probably not true- but yet you still support him.

    That is a travesty. You want to see power- go to the cults and the occult. God does do new things- but none of these things are new. Each one of the things you see Bentley doing in terms of these manifestations has its origin in Near Eastern and Occultic religious practice. That is why it is vital for us to heed the warnings of God in Deuteronomy 12:29-32 not to imitate the detestable practices of paganism. There is a difference between what paganism will do and what Christianity does.

    The call of paganism is for us to empty out our minds so that we might become one with the cosmic reality around us. Some people literally worship that cosmic reality is God. Some even call it the “Holy Spirit.” The Bible calls us not to empty our minds but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds (Romans 12:2).

    You have become so desensitized to the importance of essential doctrine that you will hold to your golden calves- because you value the power. What you are doing fits right in line with having a form of godliness, but denying its power. Someday I pray that you will wake up much in the same way that I did 11 years ago- because as long as you are deluded into thinking that because a man walks in great power- we should receive that power as being from God- even when his teachings are questionable and he has many puffed up idle notions- God will hold you into account for the people you are misleading by virtue of your own being deceived.

    I just pray that when this thing in Lakeland dies- like all movements of its kind in the past have- that your faith will truly prove not to be based upon that. Because in the end it will be brought down. If the past is any indication church splits will occur- people “touched” will likely fall out the back door of their churches in confusion thinking that God has abandoned them, and yet having seen all this turmoil another person will likely come along years later and try to promote something of its kind as a new thing- but just like this it will progressively inch us away from reading and understanding the scriptures and its vitality as God’s design for our spiritual growth and guidance.

    If you knew anything about church history, you would not be able to confidently call this “a new thing.” It has happened throughout church history that there have been those people claiming to be the ones who would lead us into victorious End Times Living. From Montanus in the 2nd century to Todd Bentley in the twenty-first. The only difference is that the second century church was wise enough to deem Montanus as a heretic. Unfortunately, the church of today is so lacking in discernment that it struggles to do the same with Todd Bentley for he just like Montanus in the 2nd century is a heretic who has brought as a teaching and a movement straight from the “pits of hell.” If you can not discern that as the Holy Spirit is calling you to, then perhaps it is you that is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

  15. Chadwick, first you or others like you criticised Todd because he was doing a new thing, then I proved that God does new things, now you start criticising him because it is not a new thing. That is the sort of logic I am up again, people who will twist every argument against Todd. But ever since the time of Montanus the church has persecuted those who follow the lead of the Holy Spirit. Yes, some of those people have fallen into incorrect doctrine. Is that really what God is most concerned about? In the end you and I will have to agree to differ. But whatever your wishful thinking and however hard you fight and pray for it to happen, God’s work is not going to stop or fail.

  16. Peter,

    Following your comment 58159 I thought the best thing to do was contact the author of the story to find out exactly what he did. I asked him if Fresh Fire Ministries contacted him after he submitted the fake story. Here is what he said, verbatim:

    Hi, yes they did e-mail me within about two hours of me sending in the story. the reply was from Kira Mitchell , but before I replied (and I replied the same day as the e-mail was sent) my e-mail was posted on their website.

    In the e-mail Kira Mitchell sent medical release forms and press release forms. I e-mailed back and said that they could not verify the story, As yet no reply to that e-mail.

    Todd then announced it as a verified e-mail.

    From another e-mail I requested the evidence that this story was verified. As yet no reply to that e-mail either.

    I have also e-mailed and said that it is a story I made up to see how and if the stories are verified. As yet I have had no reply.

    (I do have permission to post the above)

    Note that the author didn’t present any fabricated information after his initial story. But they published it before he had replied (in the negative) to their verification email. When he did say the story could not be verified they didn’t remove it and Todd went on to falsely proclaim it as a verified resurrection. Even after they’ve been explicitly told it is false, as of now it remains on their web site.

    I also want to comment on your statement about Todd’s manifestations being a warning in this case. It strikes me you’re trying to have it both ways – manifestations can be used to claim that something is of God, or they can be used to warn of something isn’t from God. This makes them meaningless – how can anyone tell the difference? Perhaps all the manifestations at Lakeland are a warning that this thing is false.

    But in this instance, Todd said “I feel the glory” – that doesn’t sound like he’s had a warning – the suggestion is that the glory of God is present as he’s about to read a testimony of a resurrection, implying that the story is indeed a glorious miracle. The only problem is it never happened. Sorry, Todd, try a career change – I think there’s a shortage of snake oil salesmen right now.

  17. Oops, I meant for the whole message from the story’s author to be in italics but it only worked for the first paragraph.

    For completeness, here is our correspondence verbatim:

    Me:

    Tell me one thing, after submitting the fake story, were you contacted by anyone trying to verify it? I get the impression that you emailed it to them, and they published it without making any effort to check it out, but this isn’t completely clear. If you can tell me the exact sequence of events it would be helpful

    Author:

    Hi, yes they did e-mail me within about two hours of me sending in the story. the reply was from Kira Mitchell , but before I replied (and I replied the same day as the e-mail was sent) my e-mail was posted on their website.

    In the e-mail Kira Mitchell sent medical release forms and press release forms. I e-mailed back and said that they could not verify the story, As yet no reply to that e-mail.

    Todd then announced it as a verified e-mail.

    From another e-mail I requested the evidence that this story was verified. As yet no reply to that e-mail either.

    I have also e-mailed and said that it is a story I made up to see how and if the stories are verified. As yet I have had no reply.

    You can see my assumption isn’t 100% correct – they did try to check it out but published it nevertheless.

  18. Thanks for these details. If we can trust this anonymous author, which I am not at all sure of, Todd’s people did indeed try to verify the story. It may have been a simple administrative error by this Kira or one of her co-workers that led to this story being incorrectly marked as verified. Such things happen. In that case the situation should of course be rectified quickly and an apology issued – to the general public, not to the deliberate deceiver.

    The alternative is of course that we are not getting the full story from the deceiver. For example, he wrote “before I replied … my e-mail was posted on their website”, but did someone else reply to the follow-up giving verification details? All we have to go on is the word of someone who admits to trying to deceive Todd and those who listen to him.

  19. I don’t think I have ever said Todd Bentley is doing a “new thing.” If I have, what I meant is he is doing something that he tries to promote as being new. In reality, it is the same old heresy repeated over and over again- one person claiming that they are God’s chosen vessel to usher in victorious living for the End Time Church and inventing creative stories designed to delude people into not questioning their authority.

    You really need to look at history, church history in particular. The historians of the Christian faith from the first century would be in complete dismay of what you said. You are so desensitized as to the importance of essential Christian doctrine. It is such a warped and divisive mindset that allows deceptions like this one in Lakeland to prevail for a short time. If you had any regard for the history of the Christian faith, you would realize the importance of essential doctrine as it has been passed down and held throughout the centuries. The failure to emphasize is what allows the attempts of others like Todd Bentley to paganize Christianity- to prevail if only for a short time.

  20. Peter,
    Let us take a closer look at what you are saying. What you are saying is that ever since the time of Montanus the church has not been receptive to the Holy Spirit? While I agree that throughout history there have been many tragedies done in the name of Christ. We have seen the Holy Spirit clearly at work by men who reformed the church and taught that the church did not need to depend upon the pope or the priest for their spirituality for they themselves had the cpability.

    In terms of supernatural phenomena like Todd promotes, he basically might as well become the pope as such because depend on him for healing touches when all they have to is pray to God right in the comfort of their own home and a prayer of faith will be answered if it is in accordance with God’s will.

    On the other hand, you say Todd was lovingly corrected by Strader. Yet he has not recanted these stories about his chats with dead apostles and his trips to the third heaven nor has he been asked to be corrected publicly. In 1999 I was on the mission field in Singapore when I unknowingly made a comment that was very disrespectful in their culture from the pulpit. The pastor immediately got up and asked to speak with me, and I was asked to apologize publicly after my awareness of the danger of my comment. I did so.

    If Todd has been corrected, why doesn’t he stand up on stage and apologize for those fabrications? Instead he has been dealt with privately while his followers who have bought into this are led to believe that he has indeed had these experiences and they themselves are beginning to seek such extraordinary experiences not realizing that it might not be God’s will for them to have such, and thus making what God is saying to them and doing in them in their ordinary everyday lives.

    If Bentley was simply a layperson at a church claiming to have these experiences, then we could correct him lovingly and restore him as a brother. But this is not an issue of him being restored as a brother. The issue here is that a man who occupies a very large platform in the church has spoken these stories and yet all we do is give him a little slap on the hand and say don’t ever talk about it again without making an intentional effort to reach out to those who may have been deceived and misled by Todd’s stories. That is an absolute travesty.

    Correcting Todd does no good if he continues to post these teachings on his website which he clearly does. Even in Lakeland since he was spoken to by Strader, he may have toned down his references to angelic encounters but he still does make reference to them some. I watched just a couple weeks ago him talking about another visit from the “angel of the Lord.” So apparently he still believes he is having these experiences and even though he was spoken to by Strader about toning down his references the audience in Lakelad is still very deluded into believing that these experiences were indeed very real.

    God help us for how far we have shifted from his call to discernment. Once again Peter we have two choices- these stories Bentley is claiming are very real and we should receive him as one coming in the authority that is given to him by God, or these stories are a figment of himself and he is deluded and deceitful and so we should seek to expose him as such. I choose the latter.

  21. TC, I can’t help loving the thought of Al Mohler and all the other learned professors getting the Bam! treatment and lining up on the floor, with the help of a knee if necessary.

    I believe the Christian paparrazzi is going to be in town, and this time we’ll know for certain whether it’s a knee or a kick. 🙂

  22. Yes, Chadwick, we have two choices. I have made mine, and you have made yours. I doubt if we will convince one another. So is there any point in continuing this?

    But I should clarify concerning how Todd was supposed to have been corrected. He has not retracted his stories of meetings with angels and third heaven experiences, things which were experienced by the New Testament Christians and so which can be expected today. What he does seem to have done, and I am glad of it, is reduce the prominence of these stories in his teaching, in accordance with New Testament practice e.g. Paul’s reluctance to talk about his experiences. Todd has actually withdrawn some of his teaching from his website and issued some clarifications, as I discussed in a previous post.

    TC (by the way you need to correct the URL for your comments), I think if the paparazzi get up to their usual tricks they can expect a kick rather than a knee, and where it really hurts!

  23. Peter,
    So you are now doubletalking as you are saying Todd did have all of these experiences and therefore you receive and do not question his authority whereas earlier you said that you doubt he had all these experiences. I would call you a flip-flopper on this issue but that would be a huge misstatement as it would mistakenly imply at some point or another that you have actually stood for something.

    In your choice you reveal how deluded and deceitful you yourself are. God will one day hold you in account for it and the people you misled along with you. As for me. I will stand firm and contend until this false prophet and his ministry are sent straight back to the “pits of hell” where it came from. Then the church will have to clean up the mess created for the people’s problems of seeking instant emotional anecdotes insetad of accepting the intake of God’s word as prescribed in the scriptures.

  24. Chadwick, where did I say that I doubted that Todd had had these experiences? I presume you are referring to “meetings with angels and third heaven experiences”. I have just checked and nowhere on this blog, in posts or comments, have I used the word “doubt” (except in the combination “no doubt”) in connection with anything Todd Bentley might have done or experienced. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

    God will also hold you to account for your choice.

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  26. Peter, no offense was intended, but from those things that I have on your blog previously, you have always approached things from a very biblical mature/sound/reasonable position. It really mystifies me that you would have so readily accept Todd and defend him against all signs that he is a fraud, and thus a false prophet leading people into rebellion against God.

  27. Peter,
    So you are saying Todd did indeed have all these experiences, which amount to more experiences of the kind than anyone has ever claimed to have in the history of the Christian church. So your audience knows what you’re saying you agree with here let me outline it for you and see if they think it really is true.

    You believe that when Bentley was in Redding California, Jesus literally appeared to him in the flesh and placed his hand upon his shoulder.

    You believe that shortly after Bentley’s conversion he was knocked out of his body by an angel, and that he had to fight with the angel in order to find his way back into his body.

    You believe that also shortly after Bentley’s conversion that the Tree of Life was literally physically present in his apartment Living Room.

    You believe that Todd Bentley had a trip to the third heaven in which he had a conversation with the apostle Paul about the authorship of the books of Hebrews and Paul revealed to him that he co-authored the book with the help of Abraham.

    You believe that Bentley in another trip to the third heaven had angels put him on an operating table where they put boxes into his body supernaturally placing in him the fruit of the Spirit as a sign for what God had to do for his church because the God of the universe had run out of time and needed to find a quick solution.

    You believe that Bentley’s ministry is guided by the same angel that was present with William Branham who denied the Trinity, taught that he was Elijah returned, and that he was the latter day angel to the church of, while also teaching the serpent’s seed doctrine that Eve literally had sex with the serpent in a union through which Cain was produced, and furthermore that by 1977 the rapture would take place amd all churches would be consumed by the World Council of Churches.

    You believe that Bentley was taken in the spirit to the Himalayan mountains where he had a conversation with Sadhu Sundhar Singh, an Indian mystic who though he acknowledged Christ as Lord also taught that in the end all men would be in heaven.

    You believe that Bentley’s spirit once left his body to go to a prison cell so that he could preach the gospel to prisoners.

    Ladies and gentleman there are many other stories that Peter Kirk has to believe if he believes Todd Bentley fully as one sent from God who has not once presumed to speak something in the name of the Lord that he was not commanded to speak. But due to time and space constraints I think we are going to have to close this statement of by summing it in the same words that were spoken of the life of Jesus in the Gospel of John. If we told all the stories that Todd Bentley has claimed about third heaven visits, encounters with, angels etc. there would not even be enough room in the world to contain the number of books that would be written.

    I can not judge Peter on his past. I can only judge his ability to discern in terms of his judgment here. I am not sure if he is just so fed up with emotional anecdotes like I once was when I supported movements like Bentley is leading that he has neglected to turn to the prescription of reading and understanding God’s HOly Word the Bible.

    I don;t know if he is so anxious to see “a move of God” and so scared of quenching the Spirit by denying this as a move of God that he in turn has quenched the Spirit’s call for him to have discernment. All I know is that the evidence I have written should be enough to convince you that Kirk in his judgment on Bentley is very misguided.

    When the light shone on the darkness for me 11 years ago, I was so angry at myself for being deceived by the counterfeit. As angry as I was at myself for my own deceit, I was even more angry at myself for leading others into the deceit with me. The only thing worse than being deceived by a counterfeit is the fact of leading others in to that deceit with you. I pray that God has mercy on you for your lack of judgment and discernment, Peter.

  28. Chadwick,

    Interesting stuff – I myself know very little about Todd Bentley, and don’t want to judge based on other peoples say-so but the amount of vehement comment from all sides about this is amazing.

    In reference to “…after Bentley’s conversion he was knocked out of his body by an angel, and that he had to fight with the angel in order to find his way back into his body…” – isn’t this called astral projection and therefore an occultic act? (Also the prison preaching bit).

    I had an overwhelming sense of God’s grace on the way to work this morning, tears filling my eyes as I walked down the street to catch a train, aware once more and ever more deeply of how grace comes to a ‘people undeserving’. I am gravely concerned at how the Church across the world is lacking discernment, as evidenced in so many ways, not least of which are the mad controversies in Anglicanism, denominations born out of obscure doctrinal differences and causing splits in the Church and other things. We are still a fallen people, saved by grace. I am remembering my place in the world, by grace as someone undeserving of such divine restoration. Let us hold unswervingly to the Truth, not of human reason, or of tradition, or of some part of scripture that interests us more than others, but to Jesus, the only Way and source of Life.

    Aside from Him and Him alone we have no hope. Let us not receive grace in vain.

    Sorry, preaching again….

  29. Chadwick, you don’t know much church history if you think that no one before Todd has had such experiences. Read up not just about the Montanists and 20th century Pentecostals but about for example mediaeval Catholic mystics. I don’t believe that all of these things were “literal” and “physical”, I understand them to have been visionary experiences, which is what I suspect Todd really thinks (he certainly does concerning the pillar of fire at Redding) even if he has sometimes been a little loose in his language in describing them.

    Also I have never said that Todd “has not once presumed to speak something in the name of the Lord that he was not commanded to speak”. I have consistently acknowledged that he is imperfect and has made mistakes, like every Christian leader except for Jesus. I specifically suggested recently that God might have been prompting him not to read out the allegedly fake testimony of a resurrection, but he read it out anyway. Nevertheless God is using him powerfully as he has used many other imperfect but ultimately faithful servants.

    Jamie, please read what Todd himself has to say about his experiences, not just the amazing “amount of vehement comment”, before writing off his experiences as occultic. These are visions, pure and simple, like ones which the apostles and mystics through the centuries have had. I am glad that you too are having personal experience of God’s presence with you and his grace. It may well be that God is leading you too towards having visions. Don’t write them off as occultic.

  30. Peter,

    Thanks for that. I am concerned about the similarities between this and astral projection thats all. There is too much about the spiritual realm we don’t know.

  31. Peter,
    I was sceptical and cautious of what is happening in Florida until I decided to check out Todd Bentley and his teachings for myself on his website. Although I cant say I understand where hes coming from on all of what I found, I was delighted to find a man who is devoted to loving and pleasing Jesus with his life. I was also encouraged to see his testimony on u-tube on 18th June (I think)in which he spoke about an 18 month period from 2005-06 when he was broken and many issues were dealt with by God. I dare say there’s much more work for God to do in him, as with us all, but immaturity doesn’t mean we’re false or of the devil, as some would claim, or we’re all in trouble!
    I’m excited by the awakening that seems to be happening to certain parts of the church through the “Florida outpouring”. And it encourages me greatly that God is achieving this through the willingness of a far from perfect earthen vessel, it gives hope to us all. I am humbled and challenged that this man is willing to surrender his life in the way he has, out of sheer determination to obey the command of Jesus in the Great Commission, in the face of such intense opposition and persecution, by the brethren at that.
    I pray that he will take back even more enemy ground through his forgiveness and blessing of those who have sought to “kill” him, thinking they are serving God. I pray that those who are out on a “witch-hunt” will indeed find the witches they are looking for, and that their faith will not fail them when they discover where they are! It’s interesting to look at the personal testimonies of some of those who are labelling what’s happening in Florida as false and of the devil. Of those I’ve read, there is a common thread of them having been wounded and let down by the church in some way. Woundedness, left unhealed through deeply painful repentance and forgiveness, gives the enemy free access to use us for his purposes. We should not be unaware of his schemes. I think Romans 2 verse 2 is always helpful to remember when judging others, because I suspect that many of those who are claiming that Todd is deceived and being used by the devil, may actually be the ones who are being deceived and used by the enemy.
    I pray that this whole thing will bring about a time of deep repentance in the church for the way that wounded brethren have allowed the devil to use them in order to bring division and hatred into the church.
    It has been helpful to me to see how this awakening of the church has been put into a broader context by more mature Christians. Rick Joyner has written some very interesting views on his Morning Star website.
    http://www.morningstarministries.org/Articles/1000034781/MorningStar_Ministries/Media/Special_Bulletins/2008/_11_The.aspx

  32. When Chadwick, you picked up on my first comment on the Todd Follows Jesus Example thread, you suggested that he could seem very zealous. Wow – what can I say!. It is exceedingly clear that there is plenty of clear water between you and Peter.

    I certainly have not examined the reported visions of Todd enough to offer a worthwhile opinion. I am certainly no cessasiionist, and expect that any of the gifts detailed in Scripture might be manifest today. Indeed on a couple of small occaisions I have received visions myself. I duly shared them with trsuted and mature members of my chruch, including the vicar., so that they could be weighed and considered. What I tend to feel is that Todd is describing visions in what seems to bbe a characteristic dramatic, even OTT, way.

    I am unclear whether there has always been a sufficient means of receiving and validating such visions – I reflect that as something where I would welcome any reassurance from those who know. Sorry, if this sounds a bit Wimberesque! What seems important is that we weigh what Todd says here, as with all he says, in the same spirit of discernment we apply to the use of any of the gifts, and indeed the Florida events themselves. back to the Bereans, 1 Thess again again.

    The Deceiver can provide false visions as well as miracles.

  33. Jamie, I agree that there is a lot we don’t know about the spiritual world, but that is not a reason to be fearful. He that is in us is greater than he that is in the world, and so as long as we are doing things in Jesus’ name and under the protection of his blood, symbolising his death on the cross and his resurrection, we have nothing to fear.

    Colin, the same applies to your fears about false visions, which are not the same as genuine visions told in an over-dramatic way which is more likely to be the case here.

    Mandy, thank you. I appreciate your attitude. I wish more people would be prepared to examine impartially what Todd is actually saying, and not apply to him unrealistically high standards which no one but Jesus could satisfy. Of course we are all wounded and need God’s healing, but the problem is often with those who don’t recognise that and try to shut God’s healing power our of their lives. Thanks also for the Rick Joyner article which I am reading.

  34. Peter,
    I didn’t say no one in church history has proclaimed such experiences. I said that Todd Bentley has had more experiences of the kind than anyone in Christian history. Again you are trying to play both sides- because you say that Todd has presumed to speak in the name of the Lord that which he has not commanded to speak. That is what makes him a false prophet. Read Deuteronomy 18. You can’t have it both ways Peter. But it is apparent that you are trying to.

  35. Peter,
    To add as well, I do believe there will be some mystical experiences from time to time. But Bentley worships his mystical experiences more than he worships God. The apostle Paul himself describes mystical experiences- but he never allowed them to become the driving force of his faith. He never proclaimed that he was an operating table of heaven where angels were putting boxes into his body representing the fruit of the Spirit because the perfect infinite of the universe is being overcome by the very notion of time which he himself created.

    If any of you believe that, I have some beach front property in Arkansas that I’d really love to sell you. I’ll even give you a discount on it.

  36. Chadwick, if you are going to apply Deuteronomy 18 so rigorously, first stone to death your own pastor, if not yourself, for daring to preach a sermon which is not 100% what the Lord has told him or her to preach. After all no sermon is perfect. Then turn your attention to Todd.

    I didn’t say Todd’s experiences were identical to Paul’s. I said they were similar in character, which they are. Also they are not more than those of many mystics in church history. I accept that Todd has made rather too much of his experiences, and that he has taken good advice to tone this down. But to suggest that he worships these experiences is ridiculous.

  37. Peter,
    My pastor doesn’t claim that his words are prophetic. If you have a problem with that standard than take it up with God because he is the one who set it in place. Even a psychic can get things as accurate as Todd, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Paul Cain and other so-called prophets have.

    I am not saying we should stone them. Under Mosaic Law that is what they did. I see no indication of that law ever changing. It was always considered an abomination for people to speak things in the name of the Lord that they were not commanded to speak.

    So everyone else here is made aware, Todd Bentley’s mentor is ministry is Bob Jones (Not to be confused with the founder of Bob Jones University). In 1992 Bob Jones was found guilty of charges of prophetically having women strip naked in his office and fondling them sexually- this all in order so that they could receive a prophetic word for him. Yet Bob Jones has occupied the pulpit in Lakeland.

    For years, Paul Cain who also has spoken in Lakeland claimed that God had supernaturally shut down his libido so that he would never desire any woman. However, in 2004 it became revealed that Paul Cain had used that story to cover up the fact that he is a practicing homosexual.

    Both these men have occupied the pulpit in Lakeland, with Bentley having full view of these facts. What has been lacking from day one in this movement is clear accountability. Now many sheep are being led astray, just like Peter Kirk himself. Do not feel for the delusion. Join me in praying this false revival, and this false anointing straight back to the “pits of hell” where it came from.

    Furthermore, let’s speak out until we bring this to end. Jim Jones had a ministry very similar to Bentley which eventually led to the death of 918 people in the greatest cult suicide in our history. It may be premature to say that Bentley is leading his followers in that same direction, but I think we need to take caution in case. In its infancy, Lakeland has the characteristics of The People’s Temple and any other apocalyptic cult that has plagued the church throughout its history. Even if it does not end up in the same result naturally with physical suicide deaths, there are many who are being led into spiritual suicide as they drink the spiritual kool-aid served up by Bentley. If we refuse to speak out against it and to warn those who are being deluded and deceived by its ruse- then I believe that the blood of those deceived will be upon our hands.

  38. Peter,

    Thankyou.

    I can’t help feeling that most of the discussion on these blogs is nit-picking and getting entangled in worthless controversies, while all the time missing what God is doing.

    It appears to me that 2 things have been revealed through what’s happening:

    1. God is being presented, through the ministry of Todd Bentley, in a way which is alien to much of the church.

    2. There is an incredible amount of division in the church, much of which is likely to be being fuelled by people’s woundedness.

    Rick Joyner’s view that God wants to heal the church before we can complete the Great Commission resonates with me. Maybe, what is happening is all part of God’s plan to achieve this. Todd is presenting God as a healing God & providing the demonstration of this. Albeit, its only part of the overall picture, it nevertheless, is an essential part of the whole.

    Again, I state I am excited by what’s being stirred in the church. I even venture to say that I think it’s good that all of this hostility is being exposed. Our wisest response is to humble ourselves before God and honestly seek what he wants to do in us at this time, laying down all our pre-conceived ideas and opinions and inviting him to speak his heart and purpose. It takes courage to do this but I believe those who do so will be rewarded.

    We are all on a journey leading to eternal life. His will is for us to become more and more like Jesus until we are full to the measure. But he needs our cooperation and desires our willing obedience. Do we love him enough to lay down all our own opinions of how things should be done, and say “Your will be done”? “Show me what needs to change in me?”

    It’s easy to back up just about any opinion with scripture. Verses can easily be quoted out of context and applied with a harsh determination to prove the point.

    I pray that everyone here will have the courage to honestly & prayerfully seek the truth in all of this & seek to know HIS heart.

  39. Chadwick, Todd doesn’t claim that all his words are prophetic. He does claim, as your pastor surely does (if he or she doesn’t, you should certainly leave that church), that he is ministering in the name of the Lord. You should apply the same standards to both.

    Paul Cain and Bob Jones have repented of their sins and should be forgiven. John 8:7. If you are not prepared to forgive others, should I count you as a Christian at all?

    Chadwick, a few days ago I had to ask a Hindu to stop posting “comments” on my blog which were simply promotion of his non-Christian religion. Is there any good reason why I shouldn’t apply the same standard to you who are also promoting religious ideas which completely contradict my idea of Christianity? If you continue simply to bad-mouth Todd and his ministry and post prayers against it I will simply start deleting your comments. Say something new or keep quiet.

    Mandy, again, thank you.

  40. Pingback: Revivalism as Carnival · Notes From Off-Center

  41. Peter,
    Forgiveness is one thing. Allowing these men to minister from the pulpit is another. For the record, Paul Cain never did repent. Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle both testify of that. Delete my comments all you want. But your idea of Christainity is the one that is very paganized, to the extent that you have exchanged the truth of God for a lie as you follow doctrines of demons and false teachers who are telling you everything that your itching ears want to hear. What’s a matter is my avid research a little too much for you handle? In the words of Blaise Pascal, “truth is so obscure and falsehood so established that unless we love the truth we can not know it.” It is apparent, Peter, that you my friend have no love for the truth. May God judge you for that.

  42. Chadwick, I am not afraid of your curses because the one who is in me is greater than the one who is inspiring you to curse others. The one who barely gets a positive mention in any of your comments, Jesus Christ, is Lord! Goodbye.

  43. I pulled my thoughts out in another post since they got a bit long-winded. But Bentley and his ilk truly smack of carnivale grotesqueries in the true sense of the term (namely Bakhtin and others). It is not necessarily this aspect of subversiveness that is problematic, but the dove-tailing of this with clear spectacle that seems to be socially subversive and thus quite deviant.

    I too have been a charismatic lest one think I am some kind of cessationist. Yet there is clearly an issue I have with the parading of the sick as the grotesque in what appears to be a consistent reinforcement of social subversion in order to maintain a specific special identity – as those who are “blessed” to wield the animus and power of God almighty.

    There is a haughtiness and pride to Bentley’s wielding of miraculous “powers” that makes me think of the tenor of St. Paul’s first letter to the church in Corinth. To this degree at least, Chadwick is on to something with the paganization of the revivalist cultus.

  44. Peter,
    Careful now? You know what the Bible says about attributing the works of God to the Devil. I have not cursed anyone I have simply said that leaders need to be held accountable and judged. It is a Biblical principle if you read the Bible. The Bible gave us guidelines for how to judge false prophets that you seem to want to ignore. Paul himself dealt with a man saying that the man needed to be turned over to Satan because the kind of immorality present did not even exist among the Gentiles, and yet the people let it go without judgment much in the same way that the Vineyard Church let Bob Jones continue to minister without judgment for prophetically manipulating women to strip naked and fondling them sexually. Neither did Todd Bentley use sound judgment when he allowed Paul Cain, a practicing homosexual to speak at the revival in Lakeland. It is clear Peter, that you are consumed with a very phariseeical attitude. The truth of the gospel of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is staring you right in the face calling you to repent of following after this golden calf of National Enquirer sensationalism masquerading around in the body of Christ. Yet much like the Pharisees, you are rejecting the commands of this Jesus.

  45. Chadwick, calling on God to judge someone, having already pronounced them guilty, is a kind of curse. You are libelling Paul Cain who is not a practising homosexual but, according to his own statements, no longer practising. Please apologise for this libel before I allow you to comment here again. Even then what I just wrote on another thread applies:

    Chadwick, this is your final warning. I will allow you one last comment to reply to what I have just said about you. Then, unless there is a real change of tone, that is it, you will find your comments being refused or deleted.

  46. Drew, I think you might do better to direct your comments at Todd’s model, Jesus. After all, it was he who pioneered allowing the sick to come to him for public healing. This is not so much “paganism” as a return from institutionalised Christianity to the real origins of the Christian faith.

  47. “Allowed” is very different than an intentional spectacle which is clearly what Bentley is doing. Also, we can give Jesus some license here, I think.

    The truth is that Bentley draws attention to the spectacle of his “powers” given to him by God, not to the redemptive presence of Christ. If he were just some guy doing this in a way that was not the aggrandizement of celebrity and spectacle, I would have very much less to say. the image of his healing and that of Benny Hinn’s menagerie are identical. And that is a major problem that looks nothing like the early church except through the lens of revisionist memories.

  48. Drew, on what basis do you “give Jesus some license” but not allow the same to Todd? Surely we are meant to follow Jesus’ example. There is nothing in the Bible about not doing some of what Jesus did because we don’t have the same licence he has.

    I agree Todd has made a bit too much of a public show of this. But, for better or for worse, the world and worldly Christians are into this kind of celebrity culture, and we need to meet them as they are – just as Jesus didn’t reject the people who came to him for healing according to their cultural expectations, but met them where they were and took them on.

  49. Peter, if I am speaking libel about Paul Cain, explain to me this excerpt from an article right here written by Rick Joyner. The full content of the article can be found at http://www.morningstarministries.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000031954

    Later, Paul submitted himself to a restoration process and they declared him restored to ministry. When those who had led this process explained how they had accomplished this so fast, it set off more alarms in me. Some of the communication I had with them and with Paul only solidified my doubts. Even so, I had a great hope that I was wrong, or even if I was right about the validity of their restoration process, that the Lord would intervene some other way so that Paul could be delivered from the powerful strongholds that had taken such a grip on his life.

    I kept that hope until Paul spoke in Lakeland about “the allegations” about him and his assertions of having lived a celibate life. That was pretty overwhelming evidence that he has still not repented of these serious transgressions. What Paul called “allegations” are abundant and overwhelming evidence, which Paul has admitted to. However, admitting something is not the same as repenting of it. As long as there is blame-shifting, an attempt to cover them up, or dilute the seriousness of them, the restoration process has at best fallen far short of its purpose.

    As it has been reported that Todd would not let Paul come back on the platform after he asserted that he had lived a celibate life is a credit to the integrity that Todd is trying to maintain in his ministry. If Paul had even just said that he had made serious mistakes in his life and owned them just a little, it would have given me hope, but it seemed quite clear to me that not much has changed with Paul, and in fact, they are getting worse. Even so, I am resolved to not give up on Paul for as long as he is with us. I long for the day, as I know Jack and Mike do also, when we can assert that Paul is free of the serious strongholds in his life and should be restored to ministry. Presently, my concern for him grew considerably after his night in Lakeland.

  50. For my final comment, it is apparent you are getting scared because God is using me to confuse your language in the same way that he confused the language of the people at the Tower of Babel where they tried to build a tower to God not to get to know him but because they wanted to be like Him and compete with him- which is no different than what Todd Bentley is doing in Lakeland.

    If we want to know what true effectiveness in ministry is about, it does not require miracles signs and wonders. They may follow from time to time. People often accuse those who are skeptical of these movements of having a spirit of religion, but there is no greater spirit of religion than to believe that we need any more of miracle, sign, or wonder to confirm the gospel then what Christ has already given us in his resurrection from the dead.

    In the latter half of twentieth century, Jim JOnes burst onto the scene much in the same way Bentley has. Had Jones been thirty years later, his faith healing services would likely be showcased in the same way Bentley’s have. Yet like Bentley for Jones, the Devil was in the details and that is because he had no details.

    To all the listeners out there be careful and don;t be deluded because this is a very pagan form of Christianity. For years, the Latter Rain Movement of which Todd Bentley, Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Bob Jones are a part of has promoted very destructive heresies. Central heresies such as the belief of the restoration of the tabernacle of David- that there is a perfect form of worship music style which is required to set the atmosphere in order for God to work, and the manifest sons of God doctrine/Manchild company doctrine which teaches that rather than Christ literally coming in his glory his glory will come in a remnant of Christians who are so much like Christ that they themselves will manifest the second coming of Christ as the incarnate body of Christ.

    Bentley is also associated with the Word of Faith Movement. His church in Canada is affiliated with Rhema, the main Word of Faith center which teaches that by our words we can imprison God to do things in our life so if we want to become a millionaire we simply need to walk around proclaiming in the name of Jesus that we are a millionaire. Word-Faith teachers hold to a gallore of heresies such as Satan conquered Jesus on the cross, we are little gods, Jesus had to pay a ransom to purchase our salvation, etc.

    The true example of effective ministry for the glory of Jesus Christ has been found oin Billy Graha. IN 60 years of ministry the only miracles, signs, and wonders we have seen take place are the number of lives surrending their hearts to Christ Jesus. That is what it is all about.

    I pray that Bentley’s route does not follow the same course as that of JIm JOnes, but I think we should consider that it certainly might. I would rather believe that believe is simply a conman using this to make money- then to believe that he sincerely does believe all he has claimed. But if he sincerely believes all he has claimed- then it is very scary. For years the writings and prophecies of Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and Paul Cain have been right on the edge of ultimately transforing Christianity into the practices and doctrines of the New Age Movement. Bentley has progressed it even further with his claims of astral projection (though he will never call it that). They will say these experiences are normal in the Bible like angelic encounters. Scripture only mentions angels in less than 1% of the Bible and people have encounters with angels in less than .1% of all the scriptures. I urge you my brothers and sisters in Christ to remember Colossians 2:18

    “Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.”

    For further info about this destructive heresy email me at Cwhzup13@aol.com

    God bless!

  51. Chadwick, Rick Joyner may well be right that Paul Cain has not properly repented. But of course he is saying this in hindsight after Paul’s comments at Lakeland. Todd did not know these comments in advance, but only that he had previously publicly repented. It is indeed to Todd’s credit that he did not invite Paul back.

    I agree with you that there is some danger that Todd like any successful preacher may fall into error as Jim Jones did. That is one reason why I pray that Todd’s ministry will not fail (as you have prayed on this blog) but will succeed, that success including not going astray into error, but rather than more and more people will through him come to know the truth about Jesus Christ the Lord.

  52. Following an example is very different from standing in the place of someone. We are to witness to Christ, not replace the power of Christ masking it as our own. That is what Bentley does.

    I strongly disagree that we are to meet people where they are through this celebrity culture. The corporate engines themselves relativise all forms of communication to one flat plane of self-aggrandizement. This is something that Christians ought to reject rather than “use”. Capitalism requires spectacle, and you cannot have spectacle unless you oppress someone somewhere. The problem is the object on which one is focused. IS it a crucified and resurrected Christ, or is it the freakish tingling crap that Bentley is so haughty over. Don’t slavishly use culture, transform it for the service of Christ. Bentley is not an example of this at all. St. Francis Xavier was. The difference is palpable and obvious.

    We are called to transform the crap that Bentley, Hinn, Dollar, Osteen, Hagee, Robertson, etc. are selling to us – because its a capitalist gimmick and nothing more. Unfortunately you have slavishly boight into brand Bentley with what seems to be a cultish enthusiasm – like a kid who would kill for a set of new Nikes.

  53. Following an example is very different from standing in the place of someone. We are to witness to Christ, not replace the power of Christ masking it as our own. That is what Bentley does.

    I strongly disagree that we are to meet people where they are through this celebrity culture. The corporate engines themselves relativise all forms of communication to one flat plane of self-aggrandizement. This is something that Christians ought to reject rather than “use”. Capitalism requires spectacle, and you cannot have spectacle unless you oppress someone somewhere. The problem is the object on which one is focused. IS it a crucified and resurrected Christ, or is it the freakish tingling crap that Bentley is so haughty over. Don’t slavishly use culture, transform it for the service of Christ. Bentley is not an example of this at all. St. Francis Xavier was. The difference is palpable and obvious.

    We are called to transform the crap that Bentley, Hinn, Dollar, Osteen, Hagee, Robertson, etc. are selling to us – because its a capitalist gimmick and nothing more. Unfortunately you have slavishly bought into brand Bentley with what seems to be a cultish enthusiasm – like a kid who would kill for a set of new Nikes.

  54. Indeed, Drew, Todd witnesses to Christ and does not claim any power of his own. He focuses on the crucified and resurrected Christ. But please read 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and then reconsider whether it is wrong to witness to people where they are. That doesn’t stop us criticising bad aspects of culture. But we should never expect people to abandon their culture, even abandon their sin, before preaching the gospel to them. Repentance is a result of hearing the gospel, not a precondition.

  55. Chadwick, thanks for your comment, and for the link to your new blog, which is libellous in its very title – probably actionably so if Todd chooses to consult his lawyers, so be careful. I am glad that you have found another place to vent your spleen and will be glad if you continue to use it.

    Your problem is that you assume that a minister’s moral or doctrinal failings imply that their ministry is altogether false. Yes, Bob Jones and Paul Cain failed morally, William Branham doctrinally, Jim Jones in both ways. But that by no means invalidates their ministries.

    I don’t want to defend Jim Jones in any way or claim that his ministry was ever valid. I don’t know enough about it. But I do note that by the time of the mass suicide he was openly an atheist and a Communist. So Jonestown was nothing to do with a Christian minister, but was the fault either of an apostate or of someone who had deliberately lied his way into Christian ministry.

    Your basic error can be clearly traced back to the Donatists of the early 4th century, but was rejected by the church then and still is now. Of course I am not condoning any past errors of these people, or any which Todd might make in the future, but Todd can hardly be condemned for his predicted future errors!

  56. Peter,
    Have you ever read the story of Saul? He was anointed as King. But he stepped out of that anointing by disobeying God. It was at that point that Samuel told him that he had fallen out of his calling and thus was rejected by God as king. Even after being told this Saul would maintain a foothold on his kingdom even though God had rejected him.

    You are speaking a message of love, tolerance, and acceptance, and I believe in that passage but it must be balanced with truth, justice and accountability. That is what is sorely lacking in Todd Bentley’s ministry.

    Todd barely preaches any at all and so the only reason for people to watch Bentley is because they are searching for signs and wonders which Jesus warned against in Luke 11. There is no greater spirit of religion than that which leads us to seek more of a sign and wonder than what Christ has already given us in His resurrection from the dead.

    I am not saying that there are no signs and wonders. Too often people seek the gifts and not the giver. I think that is evident in the people flocking to Todd Bentley’s ministry.

    These movements like the Toronto Blessing, Pensacola Outpouring share one thing in common throughout history- they have ended in 100% chaos and turmoil 100% of the time. True revival is a personal matter of drawing close to God. It doesn’t require miracles, signs, and wonders though they may follow.

  57. Chad, please don’t think that by abbreviating your name you can get round my request for you not to comment again on my blog unless you have something really new to say. There is a little bit new here, so this time I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

    If and when Todd persistently disobeys God, he will lose the anointing. He is very aware of that. That is why he spends hours every day in prayer keeping close to God. He has plenty of accountability. I accept that many people do flock to him for wrong or mixed reasons.

    Toronto has not ended in 100% chaos but is continuing gently among those who allow it to, on a smaller scale than the peak of 1994 but in many ways much deeper.

  58. Pingback: Todd Bentley is a Sad Loser · Notes From Off-Center

  59. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » God TV defends Todd Bentley broadcasts

  60. We are called to share the Gospel, with our words,action and life. These means to bring hope, opportunities and love for those who are in the darkness ( some theologians says “people from hell/ act like demons). So if we saw a person like “a demon” what should we do? … (I need all of your tehologian answer) we should kill him or… our task to bring him back to his possesion before our GOD. In this time it will become wiser if we pray and try the best to bring Todd back to God’s glory rather than discussing what he got the the glory of GOD. there is no one right at God’s eye including me and thanks for Jesus who died for us. So I learnt a lot from Todd’ s life.

    God Bless you all

  61. “St” James, who are you saying is “a person like “a demon””? And what lie are you referring to? The implications of what you write are libellous. Actually don’t answer the question because I would have to delete your comment as libel if you gave the answer I expect you have in mind.

  62. Pingback: Todd Bentley Redux · Notes From Off-Center

  63. Does saying Jesus is Lord and believing He is come in the flesh prove the Holy Spirit in a person? as is claimed in these comments? isn’t it time for such shallow charismatics [I am charismatic] to grow up a little and realise that catholics anglicans and mormons preach these things. Is simply saying a thing proof of anything in the bible. Stop being so childish in this matter, Jesus said many will come saying “Lord, Lord.”
    Now during his Lakeland meetings I am sure TB claimed Jesus was his Lord, was he telling the truth? if he was living in adultery? how is Jesus Lord of his life?
    And this that Jesus has come in the flesh, does it mean at Bethlehem or in the flesh of the one confessing, read the whole context of that scripture.
    I would solemnly warn anyone who would still adhere to TB now will do so at their utmost peril.

  64. Susanne, you can deny Romans 10:9 if you like, but it is still in my Bible. I would never suggest that non-charismatics who confess Jesus as Lord cannot be saved. And, from Romans 8:9-11, those who are saved have the Holy Spirit working in them even if they are not exercising his gifts.

  65. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » Let’s support Todd and Shonnah Bentley at this difficult time

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