Todd Bentley has remarried, probably

It would appear that Todd Bentley has now married Jessa Hasbrook, apparently the “woman whom he had extramarital affair with”. This is reported by Rick Hiebert at the Shotgun blog of the Western Standard, an apparently reliable source, as well as other more dubious sources which I will not link to. I do not endorse all the comments reported in this post. But I will keep an eye open for Rick Joyner’s response.

Please, no comments which simply condemn Todd and Jessa. I will expect good arguments for any positive or negative assessments of the situation.

UPDATE: A new article by Rick Joyner confirms this news, and also announces that Todd has now started his restoration process. Please read this article; I have nothing to add to it except my prayers.

124 thoughts on “Todd Bentley has remarried, probably

  1. Todd sinned.

    There’s simply no way around it – and, based on Rick Joyner’s statement (on the Morningstar site, no one is trying to get around it.

    We don’t know – and likely won’t, and certainly shouldn’t know – the details behind the divorce.

    What remains is this: Is divorce sin? Yes. Were some of Todd’s other actions sin? Yes. Did he commit an unforgiveable sin? No. Is it possible for one who sinned greatly to be restored fully? Yes. The Bible’s full of examples.

    We should be praying for all involved, and helping both Todd and the restoration team be accountable to God for true restoration. It’s not going to be an easy process, but it’s one in which God wants to demonstrate His grace and glory and love.

  2. Bene and Kathi, thanks for the link to Rick Joyner’s site. This is indeed confirmation of the truth of the story.

    Kathi, I have no doubt that some of Todd’s actions were sin, as were some of my actions, and, I trust you will admit, also some of your actions. And there was certainly sin involved in the divorce, although not necessarily Todd’s. Thank you for reminding us all that restoration is possible. It is interesting that according to Rick this restoration process has now begun. I have nothing more to add to what Rick has written except that I too am praying for full restoration for Todd and Jessa, also for Shonnah.

  3. Kathi, I have no doubt that some of Todd’s actions were sin, as were some of my actions, and, I trust you will admit, also some of your actions.

    Absolutely. No judgment from this corner – just recognition that it is what it is, but that God’s grace is bigger than any of it.

  4. My wife just read his book “Journey into the miraculous” and was so upset reading through it knowing now what has happened to his marriage.
    It seemed like all along God had sent Shonnah to Todd; and for some reason that has now dissolved. God may have started the ball rolling for the two of them as he so often does due to his kindness and i’m sure he kept them together for as long as he possibly could without thoroughly interfering with their wills. Somewhere one of them or both of them wanted out and I guess God turned them ovoer to their sinfulness. He didn’t will them to do it and i’m sure is devestated at another christian marriage torn apart.

    I would like to hear Todd come out and speak about it and be open and honest with his brothers and sisters. No in any way to disrespect his former wife and so on but to tell us where was God in the midst of it for Him. Did God release him of his promise to marry his first wife? Did God tell him to marry Jessa? I think these questions are appropriate and should be answered especially if they are going to minister together.

    Tragic but as always God in his infinite wisdom and grace and kindness can bring good out of it. Lets hope both party’s can feel God’s hand upon them honestly.

  5. His remarriage is not accepted by God. He is living in adultery!

    Check out what God has to say about divorce and remarriage.

    “A husband must not divorce his wife.”
    1 Corinthians 7:11

    because;

    “The Lord was witness to the covenant made at your marriage.” Malachi 2:14

    which binds a man to his wife for life;

    “A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives.”
    1 Corinthians 7:39

    and because;

    “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”
    Luke 16:18

    Therefore, if a man divorces his wife and marries another he becomes an adulterer;

    “Thou shall not commit adultery.”
    Exodus 20:14

    “The man who commits adultery is an utter fool, for he destroys his own soul.”
    Proverbs 6:32

    “Adulterers…will not inherit the Kingdom of God.”
    1 Corinthians 6:9

    A divorce does not free a man from his wife because;

    “A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives.”
    1 Corinthians 7:39

    Man invented no fault divorce. Divorce does not dissolve a marriage covenant. Jesus calls remarriage adultery. No legitimate marriage is ever called adultery.

    What God Has Joined Together, Let No Man Separate!
    This Is A Command From Jesus Christ
    Adultery is identified in every passage where the remarriage of divorced persons is mentioned.

    Divorce and remarriage is so readily accepted today that we have lost sight of God’s view almost completely. The teaching of the Word of God on this issue must be vigorously presented so that young people will not divorce and enter into adulterous remarriages.

    Many people today are trying to justify divorce and remarriage, when the Bible says that marriage is binding “as long as both shall live,” and that two persons joined in marriage are “one flesh.”

    It is our conviction that Christians must work hard at trying to reconcile divorced partners. We must make them understand that all relationships after a divorce are viewed as adultery by God and must be ended.

    ________________________________________
    Now is the time for the church to speak up on what the Bible has to say about divorce and remarriage before another generation is deceived.

    The Bible clearly says that whenever remarriage occurs, adultery results, and that is pretty clear to every Bible reader.

    In Romans 7:2 we are clearly told why the remarriage of divorced persons is adultery. It is adultery because the first marriage is still binding. “A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives.” Since she is bound to him as long as he lives, all other relationships are adultery. This is easy to understand.

    People talk in our day about “ending” marriages.
    But that is impossible to do, you can’t do it.
    It is not divorce, but death, that ends marriages. The only thing that divorce does is, make a new relationship adultery and while remarriage is legal in the eyes of the government, it is illegal to God. As long as a former mate is living, the original marriage union is secure in God’s eyes–and that is the State of Marriage.

    When one of the married partners separates from the other and joins himself to someone else, that does not free him from the state of marriage that he is in with his first wife, but instead, it enters him into a state of adultery. The truth about divorce and remarriage is clear. The adulterous relationship resulting from a second marriage is sinful and needs to end.

    Mark 10:5-9 indicates that marriage is a divine institution which was ordained by God from the beginning, and it is not particularly a Christian institution. Mark 10:6-9 says, “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they two shall be one flesh…what therefore God hath joined together, let not men put asunder.” Jesus says that marriage is binding in all cases, and it was that way from the beginning, not just since the beginning of the Christian era.

    The marriage vows are binding upon all, whether Christian or not.
    Proverbs 28:13 makes it clear that God wants all of us to turn from sinful living. John the Baptist lost his head defending this principle. Mark 6:17-18 tells how John the Baptist had said that it was not lawful for Herod to have his brother’s wife after a divorce. Herodias, was legally divorced by Roman law, and newly married to Herod Antipas, but John still said to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have her.” after they were remarried.

    Brothers and Sisters, don’t go shopping around for someone to justify what Jesus Christ clearly and repeatedly condemned. God has not changed His law to allow a man who has stolen another man’s wife to keep her. Nor has He changed His law to allow a woman who has seduced a husband away from his wife and children to keep someone else’s husband. Nor will He join two people in a God condemned wedding ceremony.

    Marriage is binding on all–whether Christian or non-Christian. It is important to notice that neither the Gospel of Mark, nor the Gospel of John recognized Herod’s second marriage as valid. In Mark 6:17 it describes the woman as “his brother Philip’s wife,” after a divorce. He called her Phillip’s wife after she was divorced. That is whose wife she was, even though Herod had married her. The divorce did not end the marriage. She did not become Herod’s wife upon remarriage. Herod was living with her in adultery; she was still Philip’s wife. God does not recognize the second marriage because the first marriage is binding until death. That is an eternal principle settled in the eternal counsels of God.

    Marriage is not just a Christian institution; it is a broad general institution, and therefore it is binding whether you were married when you were 18 by a judge, or united in marriage at age 25 in a typical church wedding ceremony. From God’s point of view, all marriages are binding, and can be broken only by death. Divorce does not dissolve the “bond” of marriage. If it did, there would be no adultery in a remarriage. The Bible condemns remarriage after a divorce.

    Every faithful disciple of Christ needs to speak God’s truth about marriage and show people, according to Scripture, that they are bound to their first spouse as long as they live.

    Oh how we must help them see the truth and keep them out of adultery,

    because…
    Adulterers do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    For further information, check out these sites;

    http://www.marriagedivorce.com
    http://www.holymatrimony.org
    http://www.catz.net
    http://www.cpr-ministries.org

  6. The thing that concerns me most is that there has been no acknowledgment of (let alone repentence for) the proven lies and heresy that Todd repeatedly came out with at Lakeland.

    [I know Peter will take issue with “proven lies and heresy”, but it is a matter of fact]

    There’s also the small matter that Todd claimed his marriage to Shonnah was divinely ordained. He did this both in books and on the stage at Lakeland, which is hardly compatible with the “years of unresolved conflicts” he’s just admitted to.

    So I have to say that I have zero confidence in Joyner, Deere and Johnson, and their restoration process. I have a bad feeling that it will just bring back the Todd Bentley we saw exploiting people at Lakeland, in which case they will just be inflicting more hurt on the body.

    I also note that Shonnah and the children are not mentioned in Joyner’s article. Surely they also deserve our prayers?

    The Lakeland “revival” imploded not because of adultery, but because of the fake healings and false miracles. By focussing on Todd’s marriage, Joyner et al are distracting people from the real issues.

  7. I remain a concerned critic of Lakeland and general revival talk but I have to commend Rick Joyner for the careful way in which this whole sorry affair now appears to be being handled. I for one don’t see what more could be done at this stage although I echo comments above that Shonnah and the children must not be forgotten.

  8. Lloyd, let me say what more could be done:

    Todd could confess that he lied to the world at Lakeland (eg about the thirty-odd “verified” resurrections, his angelic encounters, the claim that God wanted 1000 people to give $1000, etc). He could turn to God in repentance and faith for the above.

    And the likes of Joyner, Johnson, Wagner, etc, who endorsed Lakeland could confess that they were wrong to do so.

    How’s that for starters…

  9. Hi, Londoner, but that will never happen. It cannot because claims such as these are so part of the current charismatic revivalist world view. I have no idea whether the various claims were, in fact, deliberate lies. Revivalists expect miracles and oracles and so all kinds of phenomena will be interpreted through this particular lens. For those of us who stand outside this world view our interpretation will be very different but for those who inhabit it – they can do no other but interpret according to their world view. That is also why the likes of Johnson, Joyner, Wagner et al cannot repudiate Lakeland without calling their whole world view into question.

    Of course world-view shifts can and do happen but such paradigm shifts are a traumatic experience arising out of deep personal experiences and/or being sufficiently persuaded by the rhetorical force of a different perspective.

    When I said nothing more could be done I meant this in terms of Todd’s personal situation.

  10. Ferg, I agree, and I hope all of this will be dealt with in the restoration process with Rick Joyner.

    Londoner, I don’t want to discuss here alleged heresies, lies and strange practices at Lakeland. These have been discussed at length in previous posts on this blog. If you want to reopen these conversations, please first read those old posts and comments, then you can reopen old comment threads if you like, and post links here. I agree with you that Shonnah and the children also need our prayers.

    Lloyd, thanks for your wise comments.

  11. I am not at all suprised by this announcement – I never thought there was any ‘going back’ once certain pronouncements had been made.

    I am not a fan of Todd nor a supporter of much of his (and fresh fire’s) theology.

    I do grieve at the lack of reference to Todd’s first wife, and his children, in the official statement.

    The bottom line is, if Todd thinks God is telling him do do things, and that his divorce and re-marriage are ok, then he will (he has) gone ahead with it all.

    Of course it is true (as far as we can tell) that he did not initiate the divorce – and this is where the question comes in. Anybody can be restored, this we know and are thankful for – but Todd will split his supporters and other Christians in two because some will view his remarriage as legitimate, and some will view it as adultery, based on God’s Word. I’m not going to talk about what I think here, but it does open up the general question about how, why, and in what circumstances, Christians are free to remarry. The words of Christ would seem to be very firm on the subject.

    I would prefer (and will continue to prefer) to base any view of Todd and his ministry on the genuine concerns referenced by Londoner earlier, and leave these other questions to the side – there is too much we do not know, cannot know, and have no right to know.

    I think that Todd should not minister to God’s people – but I thought that before all this sad stuff happened. I’m praying for Todd, his new wife, and for his divorced family.

  12. There is a general refusal in the charismatic/prophetic movement to acknowledge just how nasty and damaging this whole Bentley/Lakeland thing has been (to Christians in particular).

    Even now many of the leaders involved (Wagner,Arnott, Ahn etc) think that the whole thing was really a gigantic new move of the Spirit that sort of just went a little off the track at the end. I find this so frustrating and frankly laughable.

    It is not so much Bentley that was at fault, it was all those prophetic groupies like Ahn who rushed to Lakeland so they wouldn’t miss out on the glory of the “resurrections” and assorted other “miracles”. They also said nothing when it was clear that Bentley needed some real help and frank advice on his own life choices.

    Frankly I could see right through this from the start, but nobody in my church would listen. But it hardly needed much discernment to do so, did it?

    As Dan Ederlin has said at Cerulean Sanctum:

    http://ceruleansanctum.com/2008/08/burned.html

    “What I cannot understand is the shock, the awful “Was it all just a trick?” feeling, the taste of ashes in the mouth that so many people will be left with in the aftermath. When Grady asks the gullibility question, it just sticks in my craw. Why? Because Discernment 101 could have warned ANYONE willing to step back for a second and think. In many ways, this didn’t even require the gift of the discerning of spirits. Yet so few insiders said, “Ya know, there’s something not right here.” Instead, they fell for the “Look over there! There He is!” trick so quickly they got prayer rug burns.”

    I hope Bentley repents, but he is now in an adulterous relationship having deserted his wife and children; Joyner will need a Lakeland “special miracle” to deal with this one, I think. But most of all, I hope that the Wagners and Ahns of this world repent of their pride and refusal to face the truth.

    I had to pull my family out of a large charismatic church last summer because of the way it bought into the Lakeland thing whilst throwing all discernment to the wind. I mean they even started showing clips from God TV of the Bentley antics to the children in the Sunday schools, followed by “Lakeland-type” ministry to the unfortunate children! Time to get out when I saw that.

    Perhaps Bentley will be restored one day, but the thought of it just reminds me of this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff

    We can all pray for Bentley, but who will minister to all those who have been hurt along the way?

  13. It would be lovely to see some mature evangelicals, firmly rooted in scripture and properly worked-out doctrine yet fully yielded in obedience to the Holy Spirit exercising all the gifts of the spirit and doing the works of Jesus. I would love that more than anything. The problem is that the personal characteristics which want to make progress “safely and responsibly”, based on a “proper doctrinal understanding”, are opposite to the characteristics required by a pioneer, such as Peter, who went against his understanding of scripture to follow the Holy Spirit into the house of a Centurion. Pioneers follow the Spirit first, then people like James have to work out the theology so that it can be responsibly adopted and taught.
    True apostolic church should surely have the characteristics of antioch, where there were prophets and teachers. Spirit and word in unity. I know that Joyner, Bentley et al are trying to build the theology to support the things that God does (and inevitably there are errors, “enthusiasms” and failures.) Really, they need the ones in the body that God has equipped to do this, but it’s very difficult to take teaching from those who try to use every opportunity to publicly snipe and deride and refuse to see any Good in ones ministry or character. Not only the prophetic and teaching ministries are necessary, but also those called to carry these callings. Both are essential and my guess is that the fullness of the church on earth will have to wait until true Antioch “chalk and cheese” relationships develop. We learn to love one another in humility, setting aside our preferences and believing the best of one anothers intentions, even if we have not yet reached agreement.

  14. I was healed as a direct result of the Lakeland revival.

    What’s more, my husband and I (and a number of others) received an impartation from God through Todd’s ministry. Whether that’s a super-spiritual transferable anointing (or whatever), or whether that’s simply that our faith level was raised to the point we expected greater things and are therefore now seeing greater things, I don’t know. What I do know is that there is a profound before/after difference in our ministry.

    Revival fire is burning… we need to quit worrying so much about what others are doing or not doing and get BUSY with God’s Kingdom work ourselves.

  15. Jonathan, thanks. This business does indeed open up wider issues concerning divorce and remarriage among Christians. I don’t have time to discuss them now.

    Bam, let me just say that I disagree with you and agree with the view of “Wagner,Arnott, Ahn etc” as you describe it. But who exactly has been hurt along the way? Yes, Todd and Shonnah’s children, but that is because of the divorce, not because of Lakeland.

    Duncan, thanks for your wise comments. People like Rick Joyner and Bill Johnson are trying to be the mature charismatics who restrain the excesses of people like Todd. Let’s pray that they are able to do so without killing things off.

    Kathi, thanks, and I agree.

  16. But who exactly has been hurt along the way? Yes, Todd and Shonnah’s children, but that is because of the divorce, not because of Lakeland.

    I’ve talked to three types of people who say they were “hurt” by Todd’s fall (and interestingly, none who’ve been hurt by being kicked or hit but several who were healed totally {grins}.

    #1 – everybody. Todd and his family are part of the Body of Christ, and this was a blow. We *should* hurt, and we should cry out to God for healing – not just of Todd and not just around this situation, but for the Body as a whole.

    #2 – people who put their faith in Todd Bentley. Anyone who puts their faith in a man will get just that… a man. Anyone who feels “hurt” in this way by Todd’s fall should be on their faces, repenting before God for their OWN fall.

    #3 – people who weren’t involved in the revival but complained, carped, hooted, and hollered about the weevils occurring there. They need to be on their faces repenting too – for confusing the works of God with the works of man, for mocking God, for hating their brother, and for self-righteousness. (I’m not talking about people who expressed concern or disagreement, they fall under #1 – but I’m surely talking about some of those present in the comments of this blog. If this statement makes you angry – I’m probably talking about you)

  17. Kathi, thanks for answering my question. I don’t expect that it is the answer Bam would give (Bam, you can of course answer if you wish), but it is very likely the right answer.

  18. I am praying for revival – Lakeland taught us how hungry we all are!
    I have been hoping all along that Todd would make his own statement – a leader is a leader in good and bad times. He did not steer this ship in difficult waters – leadership in Fresh Fire and leadership in his home.
    I am praying for world wide revival!
    I love watching God!

  19. I am deeply saddened by this news. I had heard about the Lakeland revival and I watched some of it on Godtv. I must say that I had a plantars wart on my toe disappear (that could have been a coincidence); I also had two small scars disappear. Did Todd Bentley do this? No. I believe the Holy Spirit did it. I believe He honored my honest, sincere seeking of Him and allowed me a tangible sign of His presence. I believe people were touched because of their own personal faith and therefore want to support Todd because it happened to be at that revival. Were other healings real? I don’t know, I only know what I experienced. I am torn; I know the pain of an adulterous husband, who is unrepentant and I think he (Todd) was unrepentant because he married this young woman, he did not end the relationship. I think some type of church discipline is necessary, but I don’t know what…it makes me question whether his leaders have the same difficulties in their lives and are unwillingly to make a strong, firm stand…also, I know that Jesus came to restore, and He has given us the word of reconciliation… we can not have reconciliation without repentance, though…so I know there is a balance that has to be walked out in these situations; between restoring a repentant person; and leaving an unrepentant person to answer to God. I am reminded of Ezekiel 14:6-11 that talks of God’s face against the unrepentant and the same punishment on the prophet that is induced to speak…this is Almighty God and His word…I wanted to get these things out that I have been pondering. My prayer is for wisdom for the Body of Christ and everyone involved. I, too, would like to see a greater support for Shonnah and the children than for Todd, that is so unbalanced. They need healing and restoration just as much even more so; if he truly did not repent in order for his wife to have no choice but to divorce him so he could move on to another relationship. That is speculation, I know, but that is the appearance of this situation from my point of view. 1Tim 5:19Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses. 20Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning.
    It is/was a public ministry and those he ministered to should have these things cleared up and given answers publicly according to the word of God. Well, those are my thoughts, I know I don’t have the answers, but I feel things are definitely out of balance in the way this was and is being handled. I am certain that God will teach each of us and continue to conform us into His image, and I am going to just focus on my relationship with Him and my obedience and hope that the tenacity and grace and diligence will be in me and throughout the Body of Christ to stand firm and finish the race.

  20. Rick Joyner & Todd Bentley

    I was shocked to hear the news today that Rick Joyner is giving “restoration” (endorsement) to Todd and his mistress. I never imagined Rick Joyner would do such a thing. Until now, I had tremendous respect for the man.

    What I’ve written in this note is the short version of my response that I sent to a friend of mine. Needless to say, until now I have stood by Todd Bentley because I don’t mind the weakness of the flesh, but I can’t tolerate denial. My life was forever altered in Lakeland this past summer and I praise God for it 🙂 But I am definitely taking Todd’s videos off my Facebook and Youtube because I don’t want to send the wrong message to the next generation.

    ————-

    He (Todd Bentley) should definitely divorce his mistress to get back with his wife and kids. Yeah, of course. This is all still just sinking in. I’m in shock.

    Yes, without a second thought, he needs to get back with his wife. That is not punitive action, that is just good ole’ fashion covenant-keeping. Who the heck married Todd and his mistress? Whoever did it needs to get their head screwed on straight.

    Just read the story of Ezra returning from Babylon. They had married women they shouldn’t have and Ezra made them get rid of them. Over 1000 marriages were ended. This one is actually an easy call. Todd took 100% blame for the divorce. He was getting drunk and unfaithful to his wife. If one of my friends ran off with their mistress and left their wife and 3 kids and came to me to get restoration (a.k.a. endorsement) and stay with their mistress, I’d tell them they were full of crap and “come back to me when you got back in touch with reality.” Yes, we need to restore the fallen gently, but not endorse a confused unrepentant leader.

    I was pretty screwed up before I got saved. Lots of us were. Fact is, Todd knows better. Todd knows way, way, way better than this. I don’t believe in any punishment. Restoration means restoration back to righteousness and FROM sin. To repent, come to your senses, and get back with your wife. It’s an easy one. I’m much more grieved over Rick Joyner’s blatant lapse in judgment then I am in Todd Bentley’s sin and denial of sin and refusal to get right with God over it.

    This is all very grievous to me.

    The last thing you do is restore Todd to leadership. Why am I upset? I’m upset not because he sinned, but because the proper steps are not being taken. We’re giving an unrighteous situation an unrighteous solution and sending a strong message to the next generation. We’re basically saying we’re okay with being spiritually crippled, and we don’t mind our spiritual children after us being crippled either. We’re being an accomplice to a confused, smooth-talking Todd Bentley when Todd Bentley needs a spanking, not an endorsement. By spanking I mean he needs a swift kick in his butt to get back with his wife and kids and his little sweat-heart needs to repent for helping to seduce a great man of God.

    When that happens, then we can talk about restoration, because then we’d be in reality.

  21. Naomi, thank you.

    Carla, Todd has expressed repentance, in these words reported by Rick Joyner:

    I am sorry for the hurt and confusion that my decisions have caused the body of Christ. It has been a true season of brokenness, hiddenness, and a long process of grieving.

    As many of you now know, my previous marriage has endured years of unresolved conflicts. I apologize that it has ended in divorce, and I take full responsibility for my part for the ending of the marriage. I realize that my silence and decisions have caused many of you to feel hurt, confused, and offended. The reason for the silence was for my need of healing, creating a restoration process under a team of qualified leaders, much needed rest after the Lakeland Outpouring, repentance, and the divorce process.

    That may not be completely adequate, but it is a start, and we shouldn’t push Todd into public statements before he is ready. As for Shonnah and the children, I trust that they are receiving support through Fresh Fire in Canada for whom she is still ministering, but maybe this has to be a private process.

    Nathan, you don’t seem to have considered that Shonnah does not want to get back together with Todd. She abandoned him in June last year and cut off all contact – at least that is how I reconstructed events. Your statements suggesting the opposite are untrue, to the extent that I very nearly deleted your comment. Please do not repeat such allegations here, or anywhere else.

  22. Aware of potential controversy, and aware that Christian readers may have friends or family who have divorced and remarried…

    But…..

    What if Todd Bentley’s new “marriage” to Jessa Hasbrook is actually an adultery covenant?

    If it is, then “restoration” for Todd Bentley will mean renouncing the ungodly covenant, and either reconciling with Shonnah, or having no other marriage type relationship until he does.

    There are ungodly covenants that a Christian would have to renounce to show exclusive devotion and obedience to God, eg. Masonic Lodge covenant, Skull and Bones covenant, gang covenant, adultery covenant.

    The events were:
    1. While married to Shonnah Bentley, Todd Bentley had an adultery relationship with Jessa Hasbrook.
    2. Todd Bentley obtained a government certificate to divorce Shonnah Bentley.
    3. Todd Bentley obtained a government certificate to assert “marriage” to Jessa Hasbrook.

    Items 2 and 3 above use government certificates to supposedly assert marriage status.

    However, when it comes to marriage, Christians are guided by what the Bible says, not what government certificates assert.

    Christians should follow what the Bible says AHEAD OF ANY MAN, whether the Pope, Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, Rick Warren, Nicky Gumbel, or any other church leader. (Governments and Church institutions are simply gatherings of people, and cannot override Biblical teaching).

    This is very important in authentic Christian WITNESS OF THE TRUTH to “the world” and proof of devotion to God.

    It is no good Christians hiding their sins behind government certificates or church leaders.

    The government and various people may assert that Todd Bentley is married to Jessa Hasbrook, but God may hold him as married to Shonnah Bentley, and that he is living in illicit ADULTERY COVENANT to Jessa Hasbrook.

    In that situation Todd Bentley is a candidate for 1 Cor 6:9-10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor ADULTERERS nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    The above is a legal statement in the New Testament asserting judgement warning for breaking laws originally asserted in the Old Testament.

    While Christians are not saved by obeying the law (salvation is through Jesus Christ), if they subsequently deliberately sin (break those laws), then they become a candidate for Hebrews 10:26-39 “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”

    Todd Bentley has DELIBERATELY committed adultery while being FULLY AWARE of this as a sin.

    Then he has PUBLICLY confirmed his defiance with government certificates.

    True restoration for Todd Bentley means renouncing his current adultery covenant and relationship with Jessa Hasbrook and either reconciling with Shonnah Bentley, or having no other marriage type relationship until he does

    If he doesn’t then 1 Cor 5:11-13 would apply: “But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    Therefore, should Todd Bentley be expelled from all Christian fellowship worldwide?

    So far Todd Bentley has demonstrated adultery, lying, money greed, false teaching, and false prophecy.

    This has made a laughing stock of God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit, The Bible, and all Christians throughout the world, through the widely publicised Todd Bentley ministry via the internet.

    Todd Bentley is a discernment test.

    The whole “world” is watching to see how Christians are going to deal with it.

    God is watching to see how Christians are going to deal with it.

    Instructions to deal with it are written in the Bible, and have been quoted above.

  23. Edge7k, there is no evidence for your asserted event 1, if you intend to imply actual sexual intercourse.

    The Bible does allow that if one partner is deserted by the other partner the first one is free to marry again – at least that is how I interpret 1 Corinthians 7:15 – and that is at least part of the story here. Also we don’t know whether Todd and Jessa had any kind of Christian marriage ceremony. If you want to rely on Old Testament law, remember that according to that law a man could divorce his wife, as long as this was done with the properly recognised piece of paper, and marry again.

    Despite your first paragraph, you are effectively condemning every divorced and remarried person. So why are you ranting against Todd in particular for a problem which is endemic in our churches as well as our wider society?

  24. I’m divorced, like 50% of the church in America, so I have a bit of a different take on all this.

    For those of you screaming that Todd should divorce Jessa and reconcile with Shonnah, your biblical ignorance is astounding. Once remarriage has taken place, according to Deut 24:1-4 and Jeremiah 3:1, for there to be a second divorce and a return to the original spouse is called a detestable practice in the eyes of the Lord and He says it defiles the land.

    Once Todd filed for divorce, he meant he was done. They had been in counseling for years. When he filed, he meant it was over. You don’t take a step like that which will destroy your ministry if you are not sure it is OVER.

    God created divorce, not Moses. God is himself divorced. He called a day with the Northern Kingdom and divorced her. Notice that the Northern Kingdom was never reconstituted, only Judah. As a matter of fact, there is a passage where he commanded Israel to divorce their foreign wives and send them away. That makes God guilty of SIN if your interpretation of divorce is correct.

    If you study the Greek and history, what Jesus said was if a man “puts away” his wife, it is adultery. The practice of putting away is different than divorce. It is throwing the woman out without a divorce. She could not legally remarry, and in the culture of the day her options were starvation or prostitution.

    This is still an issue in Orthodox Judaism. Orthodox women who’s husband were killed in 9/11 are still in limbo. They don’t have a body, so the rabis will not declare their husbands dead. They have no right to divorce, so they are just stuck.

    In the same passage where Jesus talks of divorce, he also says it is better for man not to marry at all, and that whoever can accept this teaching should. Why isn’t that doctrine being just as prominently upheld?

    I’ve been separated and divorced 9 years. I have had 1 date in that time, and it was just for lunch with a male friend. I have no intention of remarrying. Not because of what Jesus said, but because my marriage was such a horrendous experience I would never do that to myself again. Nothing spiritual about it.

    My point is that Todd Bentley is being treated in a way that no one would ever dare treat the people they go to church with. What gives you the right to pick him apart, then?

    By the way, Shonnah and the kids are in their home, in their home church surrounded by family. They have had a strong support system from the beginning of this.

    Todd was not hiding. He was dealing with his immigration issues at Rick Joyner’s request. He has been in consistent contact with Rick throughout this process. Within the week of his immigration status being resolved, he had moved to SC.

    The church, in my opinion, has build an altar to marriage. They have given it a prominence that it was never supposed to have. Jesus wasn’t married. Paul wasn’t married, Elijah and Elisha weren’t married. But we make marriage a condition of ministry. Do you realize the Apostle Paul would not qualify for ministry in many of our churches? Nor would Jesus for that matter. What’s wrong with THAT picture?

  25. One more thing. What Todd is guilt of, according to Todd, Jessa and Rick Joyner, is dating a woman while he was separated, just like millions of others have done.

    Todd and Jessa have repented. For those of you who keep calling Jessa “his mistress” in that nasty way that you might as well be saying, “his ho bag,” you need to remember this. God doesn’t remember that Jessa was ever Todd’s mistress in any sense of the word. I have not heard, as a matter of fact, from any of the principles involved that there was any kind of sexual relationship between Jessa and Todd.

    When she repented of whatever her actual sin was, her sin vanished from the Father’s memory. He cast it into the sea of forgetfulness.

    What He DOES remember, is that you are calling His daughter names. My Heavenly Father is rather protective of His daughters. You can disagree with their decision to marry, but I would strongly urge you to lay off on the nasty names before the Father decides to come to Jessa’s defense.

    The attitudes I have seen are like telling someone who is overweight they are guilty of the sin of gluttony. The fact that they are overweight proves that they are unrepentant of their sin, therefore beyond redemption. Just because Todd and Jessa married, does not mean they are unrepentant. It means they got married.

    Todd recently said that Shonnah told him that she was sorry for the way people are treating him. She said, we got over this and moved on. People need to, too.

  26. The church, in my opinion, has build an altar to marriage. They have given it a prominence that it was never supposed to have. Jesus wasn’t married. Paul wasn’t married, Elijah and Elisha weren’t married. But we make marriage a condition of ministry.

    No one in this thread is making marriage a condition of ministry that I see – as no one here has claimed that single people can’t be in ministry.

    People are just in variance as to how covenant faithfulness is supposed to play out in reality – and yes, some people are allowing their emotions to override rational debate.

    [I’d agree that some churches have made an idol of marriage, though on the other hand marriage does have a huge prominence in scripture – it’s used as a picture of Christ’s relationship with the church, and is at the centre of the consummation of all history at the end of Revelation.]

  27. So what was all that last summer in Lakeland with Shonnah Bentley being ministered to by Todd Bentley, even falling over? Weren’t they both prayed for on the stage? When they both knew it was all a lie?

    For an excellent commentary on the whole Lakeland debacle (probably a euphemism), read these short articles at:

    http://ceruleansanctum.com/?s=lakeland&searchbutton=go%21

    “Lakeland, Spiritual Gifts, Charismatic Issues, and the Supernatural”

    There are 8 articles, starting with “Strange fire in Florida?”

  28. Patsy, thanks for giving us some balance on this whole issue of divorce and remarriage.

    Chris, you may be right that no one on this thread has explicitly made marriage a condition of ministry. But Patsy’s point was that in practice it has become one in many churches.

    Bam!, as I understand it Shonnah’s appearance at Lakeland was not “a lie” but a final attempt at reconciliation. Fresh Fire bought a nice family home in Lakeland and brought Shonnah and the children there to live in it and rebuild their marriage. She refused and went home to Canada. Todd realised that this really was the end, and within days he had filed for formal separation.

  29. Rose, thanks for your long comment, which I retrieved from my spam box. I could spend a long time dissecting your quotations of Scriptures out of context and your one-sided exegesis. But instead I will simply suggest that you and others read Patsy’s comments which put another side to this issue.

  30. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » Todd Bentley interviewed on video by Rick Joyner

  31. First, divorce is NOT a sin. Divorce is a remedy for sin, which was permitted because of a hardened heart let alone a whole host of other additional sins.

    I am truly and deeply grieved by this whole situation. I have a log in my own eye and no desire to go after any speck in my brothers or sisters eyes… but my heart is deeply and sincerely grieved by this whole situation.

    I pray that the Lord would grant a Spirit of Holiness and a reverential FEAR OF THE LORD to rise up within each one of us and begin to flow forth from us because this whole situation proves to me that we need nothing less than for an ‘Ananias and Sapphira’ reminder that GOD HATES SIN and that the wages of sin IS death.

    There IS grace and great mercy, but the price to purchase that grace was far more costly than any one of us seems to comprehend. Jesus was our propitiation for our sins… His Blood gushed from a badly beaten and maimed body of clay, to pay in full, the debts we each incurred for ALL our sins. This is hardly cheap grace…. this is priceless and costly beyond measure. The very thought of what Jesus paid and sacrificed for each one of us, should motivate us to pursue Him in utter abandonment to our own selves and selfish desires ….

    I can only pray that in light of the facts above, that these folks have truly been broken and contrite for their sins. Time will tell when there is ‘fruit in keeping with repentance’ … or not. God cannot be mocked, what ever a man/woman sows that shall they also reap. Mercy Lord… have mercy upon your people for we know NOT what we do much of the time ….

    Lord Jesus, forgive us all for our sins… for our need to stand in the position of accuser, pointing fingers of judgment and condemnation concerning the specks in our brothers/sisters eyes when we allow a LOG to be in our own. Help us to remember that You said, ‘let him who is WITHOUT sin, cast the first stone’ … for truly, only You are worthy to be our Judge, Lord… ONLY YOU. Judge our hearts with Your Truth by Holy Spirit now and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors … Amen

  32. Jule, thank you for this important reminder. But I’m a bit worried about looking for “an ‘Ananias and Sapphira’ reminder” lest I turn out to be the one caught in sin.

  33. For me, the issue should be, is it possible for a christian to remmary having left a partner (who has not commited adultery) and remarry, and for that remarriage to be acceptable in the sight of God?
    I think the clear teaching of Jesus is no-the new relationship is adultery.All the arguments I have seen so far to the contrary are unconvincing- attempts to twist scripture to fit what is easier to accept. Jesus shocked his own disciples with his teaching about marriage-his response was not to water that teaching down.
    If the question is other than the above we are in the realms of what we feel about the truth, what we feel is acceptable and reasonable to expect of people. What we believe will be highly cultural, it will relate to how society is. The bible would still be true, in regards to its teaching on marriage, if no one on the planet beleived it. That isn’t to say that my understanding of it is correct-but if there are good biblical arguments that don’t ignore or explain away the clear words of Jesus about remarriage being adultery, except following the adultery of the other partner, I certainly haven’t seen any.
    Without addressing this question, the talk of a process of restoration is meaningless.If someone is in that position what do they need to do to repent? You cant be repenting of adultery and continuing to commit it at the same time. So is this adultery? And if not, why not?

  34. Matthew, that is not the issue, because Shonnah left Todd, not vice versa. That is, unless you are considering whether Shonnah should remarry, and that depends on the uncertain suggestion that Todd committed adultery before she left him. There is of course the different question whether a deserted husband has the right to remarry; 1 Corinthians 7:15 suggests a positive answer to that.

  35. I just want to make a general comment on this. I am familiar with Arnot, Ahn, and Bentley and have been to some of the services. I’m a charismatic evangelical but what I dislike about this is that we fail to recognize that they are just as prone to commit sin as anyone else.

    Too often, we lift up other servants of God far above the pedestal God ever intended. Perhaps they should begin to recognize that they, like everyone else, are both “simultaneously saint and sinner”. Stick with this traditional evangelical theology and when stuff like this happens again, it might not be so devastating to God’s people.

  36. I have one question about the divorce and remarriage issue.

    1.)Because if the text means “put away”, then why did Jesus say prior to this that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts?
    Did Moses say that man is allowed to “put away” their wives? This seems like Jesus is actually upping the bids (like saying looking at a woman is adultery) and going beyond the law of Moses by mentioning Moses allowed, but “I say”… something else.

    2.) Why does he mention “what God has put together let no man seperate”, talking about marriage when the two flesh become one. This statement hardly makes sense when applying the “put away” interpretation. How can someone cease to be one flesh unless they divorce?

    3.) Jesus’s answer was a direct answer to the Pharisee’s question about DIVORCE, not putting people away…

    I don’t buy Greek twists when they don’t apply to the CONTEXT! Besides this, Yeshua originally answered in Aramaic/Hebrew…maybe the Greek got blotched, but we can know what he was saying through the context.

  37. Peter, honestly, I hope that God would deal with me as He did with Ananias and Sapphira if I got myself so deceived and deluded by my own prideful sin that I became a stumbling block to other believers and especially non-believers!! I believe that would truly be MERCIFUL of Him in my life, if I was rebellious and not interested in submitting to Him and His direction. I know that my own heart is deceitfully wicked and beyond cure because THAT is what the Word says… we can’t even know our own hearts… thankfully Jesus does and He is gracious and merciful and His mercies are new every morning…

    It is time for people who are called into Christ to become ‘coffin dwellers’ … just climb into your coffin and let the Lord nail down the lid…. and DIE! Die to your selfish ambition, die to your pride, die to your need to be ‘seen and known by man’, die to your fleshly desires, die to your soul issues, ties and powers… die to what is good, better and best … just DIE to it all…. and when Jesus is formed in you, and you have decreased to nothing, then Jesus can trigger ‘that same power that raised Him from the dead’ and the Spirit will resurrect you from that coffin and Jesus will be fully alive within you and His life and His desires and His will is ALL you will care about. Just JESUS…. we decrease, HE INCREASES … when they see us, they will see ONLY JESUS –

    Until that happens, we will have more Todd Bentley’s and Ted Haggards and Jim Bakkers and Jimmy Swaggarts, and Paul Cain’s etc. The world needs JESUS not more ‘men and women’ with titles and positions and prideful egos … we should be a ‘nameless and faceless generation’ totally about the Father’s business lifting Jesus up so HE can draw all men to HIMSELF… not us! — off soap box —

  38. God hates divorce…… so don’t do it.

    >> Edge7k, there is no evidence for your asserted event 1, if you intend to imply actual sexual intercourse.
    >> Also we don’t know whether Todd and Jessa had any kind of Christian marriage ceremony

    Peter, you are just tinkering with wording.
    The logic in your statements covers up the clear case of blatant adultery by Todd Bentley.

    1. God hates divorce, so Christians must NEVER do it.
    If Christians deliberately do something God has told them he hates, then that sounds like a definite destination to the lake of fire (Heb 10:26-39)
    EXCUSES for committing sin has never worked with God, going by all the Biblical examples, starting with Adam and Eve.

    2. Divorce is only for UNBELIEVERS, who usually aren’t concerned about God’s opinion.
    Moses gave divorces to the HARD HEARTED, which is what an unbeliever is.
    Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning”.

    Prov 4:23 Above all else, GUARD YOUR HEART, for it is the wellspring of life.

    >> God created divorce, not Moses (Patsy 12/3/09)

    That’s a lie, as the above Matt 19:8 scripture asserts it was a concession Moses gave, and isn’t something God INTENDED from the beginning.
    God never intended ANY sin, Christians should repent of sin, Todd Bentley should repent of his adultery relationship and leave Jessa Hasbrook.

    >> God is himself divorced

    God is not going to be in contradiction with his own belief.
    God has never been married to any human being, so can never “divorce them”, in comparison to earthly marriage between a man and woman.
    God does judge people and send them to Hell forever, but that is a different topic than the honouring of earthly marriage covenants.

    Whilst the Bible asserts that the worldwide group of authentic Christian believers are the betrothed “ bride of Christ”, if any of those believers become unfaithful through wilful sin and fall away, then that doesn’t mean God has failed and is “divorced”.

    Heaven is perfect with a population of only 3.
    The 3 members of the trinity.

    Everyone else is a created addition, including the devil.
    This is my conclusion based on what the Bible DOES SAY, rather than what it doesn’t say. I ignore other “secret information” that “the mystics” have been told from visions/angels/heavenly experiences, or myths through history and the traditions of men.

    2 Tim 2:11-13 Here is a trustworthy saying: If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us; if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

    “if we are faithless, he will remain faithful”. Divorce is about being unfaithful to vows, and God never does that.

    It is a misrepresentation of God and therefore blasphemy to say he is divorced.

    However, there would be a case to assert that Lucifer is “divorced”, in the sense of being in opposition to God.
    (Patsy, are you getting God and the Devil mixed up?)

    The definition of divorced is “anyone who declares rejection of their marriage vows”.

    In this definition, any married person who still holds to their marriage vows after being abandoned by their spouse, is not actually divorced in God’s eyes. (God’s opinion overrides government certificates.)

    They are remaining faithful through abandonment.
    Shonnah Bentley could hold this stance towards her husband Todd, in spite of his present adultery covenant to another.

    She will obviously not be in a hurry to hold Todd’s hand, when that hand is being used to caress another, or expresses justification to do so.

    When a Christian makes a decision to divorce, then they must be turning back to their UNBELIEVING state (hard hearted), which the Bible WARNS could become a place of no return:

    Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace

    Gods grace is about opportunity to repent, not a licence to WILFULLY CONTINUE ON with things God has said he hates, such as divorce.

  39. Kevin, indeed these leaders should accept that they are not perfect. Do you have any real reason to think that they do not?

    Manly, thanks for your comment. I don’t think I would rely on the distinction between divorce and “put away”. But I note that in the law of Moses which Jesus upheld God made allowances for the hardness of human hearts, and so should we.

    Jule, I agree, except that I would be slow to name others as prideful because we don’t know their hearts.

    Edge, there is no evidence of adultery by Todd. Please stop making such allegations. If you state this again I will not approve further comments from you. But are you really saying that the law of Moses, for example in Deuteronomy 24 which is explicitly the quoted words of God, in fact comes not from God but from Moses and does not reflect God’s perfect will for his people? Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?

  40. Pingback: Gentle Wisdom » Good teaching for Todd Bentley on divorce and remarriage - on Facebook!

  41. >> Do you believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God?

    2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY HANDLES the word of truth.

    God has included description of good, and description of evil into the Bible.
    We should follow the good, and avoid the evil.

    Divorce happens, but God says he hates it, so Christians shouldn’t initiate it and thereby defy God.
    Whoever initiates the divorce becomes guilty, if the other party disagrees.
    If they both agree, then they are both guilty.
    However, it is the going to the new person (adultery) that really consumnates the unfaithfulness.

    The 7th commandment is “do not commit adultery”, which encompasses the prior stage of divorcing.

    THE CONTEXT around Matthew 19:8, including the rest of the ENTIRE Bible, indicates divorce is unfaithfulness initiated by the hard hearted, and the hard hearted are always in trouble with God.

    Zech 7:12 They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

    Prov 28:14 Blessed is the man who always fears the LORD, but he who hardens his heart falls into trouble.

  42. How can Todd Bentley be restored when he hasn’t yet repented? He is now actively living in sin with this woman, who has been horribly deceived, apparently. Joyner & his cronies are enabling Bentley to continue in sin and apparently hope to “restore” him to a position of prominence while assisting him in legitimizing his sinful relationship with this woman.

    Shame on you people who defend this practice!

  43. Here’s a quote from “Ferg” – “I would like to hear Todd come out and speak about it and be open and honest with his brothers and sisters. No in any way to disrespect his former wife and so on but to tell us where was God in the midst of it for Him. Did God release him of his promise to marry his first wife? Did God tell him to marry Jessa? I think these questions are appropriate and should be answered especially if they are going to minister together.”

    I have to ask Ferg – Are you kidding? Do you see ANYWHERE that God goes against His own Word? It seems you’ve fallen into the trap of believing that there is no black and white & people can justify their sin by blaming God.

    This is truly a sad day for the Church.

  44. Tom, see my follow up post for an argument that Todd’s divorce and remarriage are permissible by biblical standards. No one is saying that they are God’s ideal, but they are not unambiguously sins which should be repented of.

  45. Leaving a wife and asserting publicly a relationship to another woman is adultery.
    However Rick Joyner gives a different explanation, that Todd Bentley is simply following God’s direction in a new path of “restoration and fulfilment”.

    I think Jesus Christ would make a STRONG ACCUSATION to Rick Joyner, like he made to the Pharisees:
    Mark 7:9-13 “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! ………………… you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

    In western nations there are TRADITIONS, for example, beliefs about divorce/remarriage, that have got into church teachings and practices.
    Many church leaders are encouraging UNITY WITH COMPROMISE, and therefore MORE MEMBERS in their institutions.

    The Bible instead insists on UNITY WITH TRUTH, which EXCLUDES COMPROMISE, and therefore FEWER MEMBERS. God is exclusive and intolerant because he is holy (perfect).

    The pattern throughout the Bible is that ONLY A FEW are saved, because God REJECTS COMPROMISE:

    Luke 17:27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed THEM ALL.
    Luke 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed THEM ALL.
    Isaiah 10:22 Though your people, O Israel, be like the sand by the sea, ONLY A REMNANT will return. Destruction has been decreed, overwhelming and righteous.
    Matthew 7:13-14 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW find it.

    If clever people use their talent to create scriptural interpretations that fit “worldly ways” then it becomes a dreadful tragedy towards leading THE MAJORITY to Hell for eternity.

  46. Seeker3, did you read this post? There I link to an alternative understanding of the biblical teaching by which what Todd has done is not adultery. Certainly your teaching condemns to hell the majority of good Christians worldwide. Indeed are you in fact sufficiently without sin to be casting the first stone here?

  47. Check out this response from another Blog about Todd Bentley:

    http://availablelightonline.com/blog/2009/03/15/adultery-divorce-remarriage/#more-2425

    Ever since the news broke out last week that Todd Bentley had gotten a divorce, married the other woman involved in the adultery, and finally got around to going to Charlotte, NC to go through his ‘restoration’ and ‘repentance’ with Rick Joyner, I have really been thinking about the topics of divorce, remarriage, and adultery both individually and also within the chronological order of

    Adultery, Divorce, and Remarriage

    What really got me thinking and studying about this particular topic was comments left by a person named “Rose” in this blog post where she stated:

    Rose

    His remarriage is not accepted by God. He is living in adultery!

    Check out what God has to say about divorce and remarriage.

    “A husband must not divorce his wife.”
    1 Corinthians 7:11

    because;

    “The Lord was witness to the covenant made at your marriage.” Malachi 2:14

    which binds a man to his wife for life;

    “A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives.”
    1 Corinthians 7:39

    and because;

    “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery.”
    Luke 16:18

    Therefore, if a man divorces his wife and marries another he becomes an adulterer;

    “Thou shall not commit adultery.”
    Exodus 20:14

    “The man who commits adultery is an utter fool, for he destroys his own soul.”
    Proverbs 6:32

    “Adulterers…will not inherit the Kingdom of God.”
    1 Corinthians 6:9

    A divorce does not free a man from his wife because;

    “A woman is bound to her husband as long as he lives.”
    1 Corinthians 7:39

    Man invented no fault divorce. Divorce does not dissolve a marriage covenant. Jesus calls remarriage adultery. No legitimate marriage is ever called adultery.

    What God Has Joined Together, Let No Man Separate!
    This Is A Command From Jesus Christ
    Adultery is identified in every passage where the remarriage of divorced persons is mentioned.

    Divorce and remarriage is so readily accepted today that we have lost sight of God’s view almost completely. The teaching of the Word of God on this issue must be vigorously presented so that young people will not divorce and enter into adulterous remarriages.

    Many people today are trying to justify divorce and remarriage, when the Bible says that marriage is binding “as long as both shall live,” and that two persons joined in marriage are “one flesh.”

    It is our conviction that Christians must work hard at trying to reconcile divorced partners. We must make them understand that all relationships after a divorce are viewed as adultery by God and must be ended.

    ________________________________________
    Now is the time for the church to speak up on what the Bible has to say about divorce and remarriage before another generation is deceived.

    The Bible clearly says that whenever remarriage occurs, adultery results, and that is pretty clear to every Bible reader.

    In Romans 7:2 we are clearly told why the remarriage of divorced persons is adultery. It is adultery because the first marriage is still binding. “A wife is bound to her husband as long as he lives.” Since she is bound to him as long as he lives, all other relationships are adultery. This is easy to understand.

    People talk in our day about “ending” marriages.
    But that is impossible to do, you can’t do it.
    It is not divorce, but death, that ends marriages. The only thing that divorce does is, make a new relationship adultery and while remarriage is legal in the eyes of the government, it is illegal to God. As long as a former mate is living, the original marriage union is secure in God’s eyes–and that is the State of Marriage.

    When one of the married partners separates from the other and joins himself to someone else, that does not free him from the state of marriage that he is in with his first wife, but instead, it enters him into a state of adultery. The truth about divorce and remarriage is clear. The adulterous relationship resulting from a second marriage is sinful and needs to end.

    Mark 10:5-9 indicates that marriage is a divine institution which was ordained by God from the beginning, and it is not particularly a Christian institution. Mark 10:6-9 says, “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; and they two shall be one flesh…what therefore God hath joined together, let not men put asunder.” Jesus says that marriage is binding in all cases, and it was that way from the beginning, not just since the beginning of the Christian era.

    The marriage vows are binding upon all, whether Christian or not.
    Proverbs 28:13 makes it clear that God wants all of us to turn from sinful living. John the Baptist lost his head defending this principle. Mark 6:17-18 tells how John the Baptist had said that it was not lawful for Herod to have his brother’s wife after a divorce. Herodias, was legally divorced by Roman law, and newly married to Herod Antipas, but John still said to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have her.” after they were remarried.

    Brothers and Sisters, don’t go shopping around for someone to justify what Jesus Christ clearly and repeatedly condemned. God has not changed His law to allow a man who has stolen another man’s wife to keep her. Nor has He changed His law to allow a woman who has seduced a husband away from his wife and children to keep someone else’s husband. Nor will He join two people in a God condemned wedding ceremony.

    Marriage is binding on all–whether Christian or non-Christian. It is important to notice that neither the Gospel of Mark, nor the Gospel of John recognized Herod’s second marriage as valid. In Mark 6:17 it describes the woman as “his brother Philip’s wife,” after a divorce. He called her Phillip’s wife after she was divorced. That is whose wife she was, even though Herod had married her. The divorce did not end the marriage. She did not become Herod’s wife upon remarriage. Herod was living with her in adultery; she was still Philip’s wife. God does not recognize the second marriage because the first marriage is binding until death. That is an eternal principle settled in the eternal counsels of God.

    Marriage is not just a Christian institution; it is a broad general institution, and therefore it is binding whether you were married when you were 18 by a judge, or united in marriage at age 25 in a typical church wedding ceremony. From God’s point of view, all marriages are binding, and can be broken only by death. Divorce does not dissolve the “bond” of marriage. If it did, there would be no adultery in a remarriage. The Bible condemns remarriage after a divorce.

    Every faithful disciple of Christ needs to speak God’s truth about marriage and show people, according to Scripture, that they are bound to their first spouse as long as they live.

    Oh how we must help them see the truth and keep them out of adultery, because…

    Adulterers do not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    To find the truth, check out;

    http://www.marriagedivorce.com

    I read every scripture reference she left in her post.I had always believed that divorce was wrong except for in cases of adultery or if it involved the believer marrying an unbeliever and the unbeliever left the marriage. But also believed that it was wrong for a divorced person that was divorced due to ‘irreconciable differences’ to remarry.

    Then I came across the reference to Mark 6:17-18. When I first read this scripture in my NKJV version, I had a hard time understanding the intent and meaning due to the language, syntax, and semantics. However, when I went to Bible Gateway and read the test in the ESV version to better understand, I finally began to see something here. especially in reference to what Rose stated in her post.

    Mark 6:14-20 ESV

    King Herod heard of it, for Jesus’ name had become known. Some said, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead. That is why these miraculous powers are at work in him.” But others said, “He is Elijah.” And others said, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old.” But when Herod heard of it, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised.” For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her. For John had been saying to Herod, “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.” And Herodias had a grudge against him and wanted to put him to death. But she could not, for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and he kept him safe. When he heard him, he was greatly perplexed, and yet he heard him gladly.

    For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her.

    I applied the rule of English grammar where anything between two commas can be removed and the statement should still be able to be intepreted and got this,

    For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, because he had married her.

    This clearly helped me to see that the statement was referring to Herod marrying Herodias. However, when I looked at the words that were removed, this thought suddenly came to me

    For it was Herod who had sent and seized John and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife, because he had married her.

    This is the key part of the entire Scripture here based on the section in verse 18 where it is stated:

    “It is not lawful for you to have your brother’s wife.”

    The verse is very significant because we clearly see that John the Baptist had rebuked Herod and Herodias because of the fact that Herodias had divorced Philip (not the Philip mentioned in other verses) and had married Herod. Even though the divorce and remarriage had taken place, John the Baptist still proclaimed the truth of calling Herodias his (Herod’s) brother’s (Philip’s) wife.

    In the legal sense, Herod was legally married to Herodias. But John the Baptist decreed that Biblically (and I have just seen this for the first time) that in the eyes of God, even though a divorce decree was granted by human beings, God still saw Herodias and Philip as one flesh.

    Therefore, based on this, Herodias is really an adulteress and also a polygamist and Herod is an accomplice to the adultery and polygamy which is both a sin. The Scriptures imply via John the Baptist’s statement that Philip is still alive at the time this happened.

    —–

    This really became more revealed to me as I had an epiphany and had to ponder this all Sunday afternoon. I now realize that even though a government may view a divorced couple as being divorced and free to remarry, I now believe with all my heart and a change in heart that God still sees that divorced couple no matter what caused the ‘divorce’ as still being in one flesh until one party of the marriage covenant dies (and that can literally mean that a couple got ‘legally’ divorced in their twenties and one of the two parties finally died in their seventies).

    Personally in my life, I have now come to the realization that even though I am still single and getting older, I now believe that if I ever see that day of marriage the only ways that it would be pure, acceptable, and honorable before the Lord is:

    (1): The woman I one day will marry is single and never been married.

    (2): The woman I one day will marry is widowed (death of spouse)

    (3): The woman I one day will marry did divorce from her ex-spouse in her past but now has proof via a death certificate that the ex-spouse is dead (’till death do us part’) and she had no part in the death whatsoever.

    I now understand and accept the fact that by the process of elimination, my selections for a potential mate have now been drastically reduced. I now look back on my life and finally realize that some of the friendships I have had with divorced women in my age range that I would have liked to seen develop into ’something more’ was best left at being a friendship and not developing into a relationship that would have led to marriage.

    Since I understand the Scriptures a lot clearer now, I am now deeply sorry and now repent for those very few relationships (reference the last paragraph) where we both (she being divorced) made the attempt to go from being a friendship to trying to develop a relationship that might had led to marriage. It is interesting that in retrospect, we didn’t get to far in the process because of the frictions present and we ended up losing both the relationship and the initial friendship. I now understand why the statistics claim that most marriages where one or both parties were divorced prior to marriage number two ended up in divorce. I understand now that it probably would have been a disaster probably ending in divorce if one of those friends turned into relationship and eventually turned into marriage.

    (I have had to stop to pray again out of conviction. It’s been 20 minutes and now I am finally finishing writing my post)

    I have learned now that I still have to go Onward, Forward, Toward…. but now with a clearer focus, a gained wisdom, a forgiveness and turnaround, and realizing that it’s God’s way to success and blessing or someone else’s way and lots of problems and sin in the meantime. But after seeing the revelation….. All I can clearly say is…

    Thank you Lord for forgiving me and cleansing me of my sins with your blood and for repentance.

    Thank you Rose for commenting and placing those scriptures in the comments.

  48. >> Seeker3, did you read this post?

    “That post” and its related arguments in support of divorce and “remarriage” are an example of people outmanoeuvring God’s intentions given in literal, repeating statements throughout the Bible.

    Jesus criticised the Pharisees for misrepresenting scripture “you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that” (Mark 7:9-13)

    >> an alternative understanding of the biblical teaching by which what Todd has done is not adultery

    Your alternative interpretation might be convenient, but it is wrong.

    It is “scripture hacking” and possibly “millstone ministry” because it misrepresents scripture with potential to seriously mislead people:

    Luke 17:1-2 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a MILLSTONE TIED AROUND HIS NECK than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

    WRONG TEACHING contributes to people sinning.

    James 3:1 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

    The Bible has literal, repeating themes on the divorce and “remarriage” topic, eg.:

    – Endure through adversity without compromise
    – God loves faithfulness
    – You shall not commit adultery
    – God hates divorce
    – Hard hearted people divorce
    – Whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery

    These themes combine to firmly forbid divorce and “remarriage” for Christians.

    >> good Christians worldwide

    It could be poor judgement to imply that Christians who have divorced and “remarried” are “good Christians”.

    A good Christian is someone who seeks and lives truth and resists or repents of wrongdoing.

    >> Indeed are you in fact sufficiently without sin to be casting the first stone here?

    “Casting the first stone” comes from a dialog with Jesus about a woman caught in adultery:
    John 8:7 “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”
    “Casting stones” is about executing death penalty with large rocks, and I am not suggesting the death penalty for Todd Bentley.
    Jesus went on to assert a JUDGMENT of the sin and a command to repent of it: “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “GO NOW AND LEAVE YOUR LIFE OF SIN.” (John 8:11)

    “Go now and leave your life of sin” was a command to repent of the adultery and any other sinful ways. For Todd Bentley this means he should renounce his relationship with Jessa Hasbrook and either reconcile with Shonnah Bentley, or have no other marriage type relationship until he does.

    That is the RIGHTEOUSNESS and FAITHFULNESS that God is wanting Christians to live and witness to the world.

    This way is often difficult, but achievable with God’s help.

    Unfaithfulness is simply taking shortcuts to follow easy ways.

    >> Certainly your teaching condemns to hell the majority……
    It is God’s word in scripture that condemns to Hell THE MAJORITY for following the wide road of “worldly” compromise (narrow road / wide road Matthew 7:13-14).
    People should examine themselves against scripture and change the road they are on if it is worldly compromise. God warns he will reject the lukewarm (Rev 3:15-16).

    Being a self justified good church person is insufficient:
    2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you–unless, of course, you fail the test?

    Todd Bentley’s abandonment of Shonnah Bentley and going to Jessa Hasbrook is failure against the test of a LITERAL DEFINITION of adultery, repeated through scripture.

  49. Sexual immorality (adultery/fornication/perversion) is a known initiation rite for satanic covens, as a desecration against the marriage relationship instituted by the God of Genesis 1:1.
    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

    Therefore divorces and “remarriages” (adultery covenants) in churches may be an important rite to allow ministry and power from Lucifer into churches.

    Jesus specified his way is a narrow way – “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.” (Matthew 7:13).

    The spirit that encourages “remarriages” entices Christians to go back to the WIDE ROAD through participating in “worldly” compromise:

    “You ADULTEROUS PEOPLE, don’t you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.” (James 4:3-4)

  50. Disciple, are you accusing someone of deliberately performing rites to open the way for Satan into churches? If so, please either provide some details and evidence or withdraw any such allegation. If you are only suggesting that Satan is at work in this whole mess, then I can only agree, but in that case part of his work is stirring up hatred and intolerance in Christians like you against Todd and his associates. Bless your enemies and do not curse them! Overcome evil with good!

  51. >> Disciple, are you accusing someone of deliberately performing rites to open the way for Satan into churches

    That is not the way deception works.
    The definition of deception is NOT KNOWING you are deceived!
    People may never set out to be deceived, but END UP IN IT through various ways.

    It’s like walking along a bush track and you take a wrong path because someone has switched the signposts. You keep going because a whole lot of other people are going the same way and reassuring each other.

    EVERY Christian should be INDEPENDENTLY CHECKING with the “map” and “compass”, which is the Bible with logical intellect and literal, in context interpretation.

    (Some people are saying logic and intellect get in the way of spiritual life, which is counsel that CAUSES deception. Actually God GAVE US logic and intellect for correctly interpreting his word in the Bible and cross checking with debates).

    2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

    People in churches often don’t read their Bibles regularly, they just follow what the leaders are saying, so things progressively get worse over time as everyone travels further down a sidetrack INTO THE SCHEMES OF SATAN.

    In the garden of Eden, Eve is not described as directly wanting to disobey God about the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil.
    She seems to have been deceived through a logic trap in a conversation with the Devil, and ended up following his plan.
    From that has come all the misery of sin over the ages.

    >> deliberately performing rites to open the way for Satan

    If church people are carrying out acts of unfaithfulness against marriage that represent the same unfaithfulness as satanic covens performing immoral rites at midnight with candles, the end result is the same.

    The church people might cover their unfaithfulness with “remarriage” ceremonies in churches (during the daytime with candles on a church altar), but God is never fooled with dressing up sin to look holy, so why should we fool ourselves about it?

    >> part of his work is stirring up hatred and intolerance in Christians

    It is less about individuals, and more about CUNNING SPIRITUAL DECEPTION, but individuals are firmly asserting their participation, so they should be critiqued, eg. Todd Bentley, Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, etc.
    They and their followers should pay careful attention to the basis of the critiques, if they love the truth.
    The critiques are indirect warning from God when they line up with Biblical counsel.

    >> like you against Todd and his associates

    That looks like a JUDGEMENT of my motives. Aren’t you against doing that?

    >> hatred and intolerance in Christians

    There is a place for hatred and intolerance: Prov 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech.

    Some may get carried away to do and say improper things, especially if they elevate themselves towards God status. Some church leaders get like that. People shouldn’t throw literal stones (rocks), but they should pass through THE JUDGEMENTS AND COUNSEL OF SCRIPTURE against wrong ministry/teaching, as that can lead to correction.

    1 Cor 5:12-13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”

    >> Bless your enemies and do not curse them!

    No one is being cursed, as the critiques could lead to repentance of the participators, which would be a blessing.

    >> Overcome evil with good!

    Romans 12:20 …. “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.”

    Then try and persuade him away from error:

    2 Cor 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

  52. Disciple, on what grounds do you suppose that any of the people involved in this mess, especially the leaders you name, are not “INDEPENDENTLY CHECKING with the “map” and “compass”, which is the Bible”? But I agree that this is a sorry mess which Satan is largely responsible for.

  53. Disciple, another point in response to you. You quote 2 Corinthians 10:5 apparently as justifying your confrontational approach to those you consider to be enemies or influenced by Satan. But Paul is quoting those verses to people over whom he had proper spiritual authority as their apostle. You are not in that position over the people you name, indeed over anyone as far as I know.

    I suggest you watch Rick Joyner’s 10 minute video “Rick Addresses Lee Grady’s Charisma Article”, which you can find on the list here. Rick compares how Grady and Jesus respond to those they disagree with, and explains how Grady has strayed into areas where he has no authority as well as only partial information. A lot of Rick’s wise advice here to Grady may also be applicable to you.

    This is just one of four videos relating to Todd’s restoration which Rick has added in the last week. I haven’t yet watched them all, but I think it’s only in the last one that Todd himself appears.

  54. >> You quote 2 Corinthians 10:5 apparently as justifying your confrontational approach to those you consider to be enemies or influenced by Satan. But Paul is quoting those verses to people over whom he had proper spiritual authority as their apostle.

    The counsel Paul gave has been INCLUDED INTO SCRIPTURE which is the authority over ALL PEOPLE, with or without church leader titles.

    The Bible is AUTHORED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT through guiding its contributing writers, including the apostle Paul.
    The Bible has been closed at Revelation 22:21 so anyone calling themselves an apostle since then CANNOT ADD TO IT, and cannot assert authority greater than it.

    ANY PERSON, whether a Christian or not, can use scripture to critique ANY OTHER, as they simply become a MESSENGER passing through THE WORD OF GOD.

    Therefore Rick Joyner is out of order to rebuff the Lee Grady critique as being about an area “he has no authority in”.

    Rick Joyner is using intimidation to avoid a critique.
    He is using church leader status to assert “the fear of man” in place of scripture’s priority “the fear of the Lord”.

    Prov 29:25 Fear of man will prove to be a SNARE, but whoever trusts in the LORD is KEPT SAFE.
    Psalm 19:9 The fear of the LORD is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the LORD are sure and altogether righteous.

    The false “submit to leader” doctrine is used to FORCE A LICENCE to teach things the Bible DOESN’T SAY and build kingdoms for MEN and a DIFFERENT CHRIST.

    This power play was demonstrated to the world when Roman Catholic priest Martin Luther challenged the Pope about unbiblical teachings in that church institution in the 16th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther
    The consequence was the Protestant Reformation, which affirmed the scriptural concept of “the priesthood of all believers”, for any agreeing group of Christians to form their own fellowship in defiance of the Pope’s claims.

    The Pope still asserts he is the true Apostle over the Christian church, and anyone not submitted to his authority is not correctly submitted to God through authorised leadership.
    This is an ongoing contention in the world.
    The Pope is actually competing with Jesus Christ to be head of the church. The Bible repeatedly asserts Jesus Christ as the DIRECT HEAD of every authentic Christian who has ever lived.

    Eph 5:23 ……..Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
    Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    We do not have peace through the Pope or Rick Joyner.

    There is a competition between “Jesus Christ is Lord”, and “The is Lord”.
    Every Christian has to take a side in this competition, as it affects their destiny on Judgement Day.

    Rick Joyner is tied up with the Roman Catholic church through his membership as a “Knight of Malta”, so it is consistent he would assert similar authority beliefs as the Pope ( Google Rick Joyner knight of Malta )

    THE BIBLE IS THE AUTHORITY OF CHRISTIANITY, not church leaders.

    If a church leader promotes unbiblical teaching, unbiblical ministry, or unbiblical lifestyle, then ANYONE can challenge it with relevant scripture.

    Todd Bentley’s abandonment of his wife Shonnah Bentley, and union with Jessa Hasbrook is being challenged on this basis.

  55. Missing words from sentence in my last post:

    There is a competition between “Jesus Christ is Lord”, and “The (earthly church leader) is Lord”.

    Every Christian has to take a side in this competition, as it affects their destiny on Judgement Day.

  56. Peter:

    With all the lies and impersonations involved in this whole sordid mess, who can discern the truth? One thing we do know is that Todd has quickly remarried. And for what reason?

    I agree totally with Seeker3 and Disciple. Why anyone would defend such behaviour is beyond me. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God hates divorce. Surely a “man of God” should not enter into it lightly especially when children are involved. It seems as though scripture is being twisted to condone divorce, is it any wonder that the church divorce rate is over 50% – probably higher than that of the world. I write this on my 39th wedding anniversary and it really saddens me that Christians are OK with this sad, sad scenario. I can say that everything was not absolutely “peachy” every day for the past 39 years for us but I can honestly say I never once looked with desire at another woman! What this took was a true commitment to our marriage vows made before God and self discipline.

    Somehow I don’t think God approves of all these christian divorces and remarriages. Where is Todd’s wisdom? Where is the application of denying the lusts of your flesh – at least for a season? Why try to find twisted biblical loopholes to justify this messy situation?

    There are three children out there who are without a father.
    They are innocent victims that were manipulated on stage at Lakeland. Do you think God is pleased?

    What an absolutely poor christian witness to the world. Reminds me of quotes by Ghandi regarding Christianity.

  57. >> Paul may have apostolic authority over all people

    No, Paul was ONLY A MESSENGER for the Holy Spirit, in terms of his teachings written into scripture.

    Even Paul, in his day, was checked for reliability against scripture:

    Acts 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    It is scripture that is the authority, not Paul, the Pope, Rick Joyner, Peter Wagner, you or me, etc.
    Scripture was authored by the Holy Spirit through inspiring its contributing writers and has been closed off at Rev 22:21

    Repeating scriptural counsel about marriage means that Todd Bentley should repent of and leave his relationship with Jessa Hasbrook because it is an adultery covenant (defies the marriage vows made to Shonnah Bentley).

    Rick Joyner and any others who have tried to assert Todd Bentley has a marriage covenant with Jessa Hasbrook should repent for trying to mislead the church.

    >> But I am absolutely certain that you do not.

    What is the point of saying that?

    The Holy Spirit can assist anyone he pleases to correctly apply scripture in challenging error:

    2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who CORRECTLY HANDLES THE WORD OF TRUTH.

    The Holy Spirit is also known as “The Spirit of Truth”:

    John 14:15-17 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever–THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.

    My status in the church is “in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus”.

    If anyone tries to go any higher they are self promoting, just like Lucifer, and he was kicked out for trying.

    “in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus” is the status of all authentic Christians in the concept of “the priesthood of all believers”.

    ALL Christians are authorised to witness the truth which includes critiquing falsehood:

    2 Cor 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

  58. ALL Christians are authorised to witness the truth which includes critiquing falsehood:

    2 Cor 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ

    Um. “Disciple”. Back up and read the previous verses.

    You seem to think that spiritual warfare is waged in the flesh against your brethren?

    You’d best be repenting on your knees before God, before attacking Todd Bentley or anyone here.

  59. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

    2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

    4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.

    5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

    6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

    7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    8 Love never fails.

  60. Kathi:

    You should apply your comments of your post 246383 above to be a standard for Todd’s actions and see if he comes up short.

  61. Ray, I am not defending Todd’s behaviour. I am confronting those who are spreading unsubstantiated rumours that it is worse than reliably reported and who are condemning him harshly and unreasonably.

    We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God hates divorce.

    Actually, no. There is a verse in Malachi which has sometimes been translated as such, but recent conservative scholars, and I mean the ESV translation team, have judged that this is a mistranslation of what is certainly some very complex Hebrew.

    But I am not “OK with” the high divorce rate in the church. I just think that the best way to deal with the problem is not to pick on one high profile divorcee with public condemnations and ignore all the others.

    There are three children out there who are without a father.

    Actually there are millions of children in that situation. Why so much phoney compassion for these three while all the others don’t get a mention?

    Disciple, indeed Scripture is the authority, and you are not its authorised and inspired interpreter, so stop acting as if you are.

    Kathi, thanks for your comments.

  62. >> We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that God hates divorce.
    >> Actually, no. There is a verse in Malachi which has sometimes been translated as such, but recent conservative scholars, and I mean the ESV translation team, have judged that this is a mistranslation of what is certainly some very complex Hebrew.

    That looks like scholars attempting to BREAK scripture.

    The Bible has literal, repeating themes on the divorce and “remarriage” topic, eg.:

    – Endure through adversity without compromise
    – God loves faithfulness
    – You shall not commit adultery
    – God hates divorce
    – Hard hearted people divorce
    – Whoever marries a divorced person commits adultery

    These themes COMBINE to firmly forbid divorce and “remarriage” for Christians. This sits best in entire context Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21.

    It will be SAFER towards the consequence on Judgement Day to follow this conclusion, rather than the compromises produced by scholars who are trying to “reverse engineer the software” (patching together bits and pieces of scripture to create conclusions that clash with the context).

  63. You should apply your comments of your post 246383 above to be a standard for Todd’s actions and see if he comes up short.

    Ray,

    I have! Todd messed it up. But guess what? He repented.

    Several here have messed it up just as much – in effect committing murder (last I checked, Jesus had harsher words about that than He did about adultery). Have they repented?

    God doesn’t look too kindly upon those who pray thusly: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.’

  64. >> You seem to think that spiritual warfare is waged in the flesh against your brethren? (Kathi 29 March).

    Check your own flesh for making invalid judgements.
    Look in the mirror and say “Kathi, judge correctly”.

    Peter Kirk has already judged Todd Bentley as being a “fringe practitioner”, I suspect Todd Bentley is only having a little “fun on the side” with Lucifer, including a “new wife” package.

    I think he should return the package and recant of all the lying, false prophecy, and evil ministry (and his supporters recant simultaneously).

    What have you decided about Todd Bentley?

    Spiritual warfare is primarily waged by correct use of God’s word, the Bible.

    Jesus demonstrated this in dealing DIRECTLY with the Devil using scripture: “It is written………” http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%204:3-11;&version=31;

    He quoted the appropriate scripture to refute the tempter’s errors, and that settled the matter.

    In church circles there is a lot of nonsense going on under “spiritual warfare” such as chanting premade “Bible spells”, shouting on hilltops, stamping around the neighbourhoods commanding the devil to “go away”, etc.

    What do you think spiritual warfare is?

  65. “Disciple”, your words here have shown whose disciple you are. I hope and pray that you get this spirit out of you before it leads you to destruction.

  66. Seeker3, the context from Genesis 1:1 to Malachi 4:6 does not condemn divorce. Indeed at times God even commands it, e.g. Ezra 10:11. It is only in the New Testament that we get any real teaching that this is not God’s ideal for his people.

    Disciple, I called Todd Bentley, in a different context, a “fringe practitioner” of mysticism. He was very much not a fringe practitioner of the kind of charismatic revivalist preaching combined with healing for which he is best known.

    Kathi, thanks for your comment. I am reminded that the devil as well as Jesus quoted Scripture in the wilderness. But only one of them ever used Scripture to condemn individuals.

  67. Peter you are unbelievable. If “The Word” seems hard and harsh so be it.

    You are saying that a bunch of present day “conservative” scholars are now telling us the Bible has not been interpreted properly because of complex Hebrew. In this particular case their new interpretation is at odds with other Scripture. (Seeker3 has it correct in a previous post (246935)). Will all that be changed to? Surely Malachi is not the only book of the Bible that would contain very “complex” Hebrew. So how long will it be before these intellectuals are telling us that our “inerrant” Bible has tons more errors because of poor translation of the “complex” Hebrew?? Perhaps it won’t be too long before they are telling us the Pharisees were correct and Jesus was not.

    Another way of looking at this change of meaning of Malachi is that it is “old” covenant law and does not apply today. We all know this has been done away with by the church. We are now under the “new” testament which clearly states that a man should not divorce his wife so this one little isolated verse in the “old” testament argument goes out the window!

    Are you accusing me of phony compassion for children of divorce?? Sure seems so to me that you are. How would you know what my experiences have been with children of divorce? You should not try to chastise me just because I did not mention all the other children in the world under similar circumstances. What human could?? Besides there would not be sufficient space here to do it. I have first hand knowledge of how divorces have ruined childrens lives and I cannot see how God would find this acceptable. I was presenting the childrens plight as an example because it appears to me that very few people on this blog have done so. I think this is a very, very important consideration. You look very bad in this accusation.

    As far as “picking” on divorcing leaders, I would say it is a good thing. Good leaders lead by example which earns them respect. I can truly say Todd has set a bad example and does not have my respect. “Picking on”, as you put it, is what Paul has done by saying to the Corinthians to “put them out” of the church. We are to judge those in the church.! It may not be the “best” way but it certainly is an acceptable way. Jesus “picked on” the religious leaders of His day as well for not following “The Word”. In this respect I fully agree with Disciple. Putting a “Biblical” stamp of approval on this situation by twisting the Scriptures only makes it more likely that many more in the church will see this as an out for their troubled marriage. It raises the general level of acceptance of divorce in the church because people then believe it is acceptable.

    BTW, you can certainly not accuse me of “ignoring” others in the church that have divorced. For crying out loud “I” mentioned it first!!

    Get real Peter.

  68. Kathi:

    Glad to hear you admit that Todd messed up.

    You say Todd has repented??? I don’t know what your definition of repent is but my dictionary (Webster’s New World) and many on line biblical definitions state that repent is in effect: “to feel so contrite over one’s sins as to CHANGE, or decide to CHANGE one’s ways.

    So Kathi there you have it. Biblical repentance involves turning from a life of evil and disobedience. Repentance means to change one’s ways! We can see that Todd has not changed his ways therefore he has NOT Biblically repented. He just wants to get on with his new life.

    <>
    Kathi: I don’t know why you are bringing the past sins of others into this. How would I know what others here have done? How would I know if they have repented? For one thing why would I care? I don’t wish to be involved in the sins of others I do not know. However I do feel I have the right and obligation (according to scripture) to comment on the lives of church leaders such as Todd when their lives are off the Biblical track. So please stick to the topic at hand which is Todd’s divorce and remarriage.

    Also, are you suggesting I pray thusly: “God, I thank you that I am not like other men – ……………………………”
    I have NEVER once prayed that way in my 40+ years of being a believer. Boy what a bold accusation when you do not even know me! What poor judgment you have.

  69. Ray, I would just like to refer you to the ESV translation of Malachi 2:16 which is

    16 “For the man who does not love his wife but divorces her, [1] says the Lord, the God of Israel, covers [2] his garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So guard yourselves in your spirit, and do not be faithless.”

    Footnotes

    [1] 2:16 Hebrew who hates and divorces
    [2] 2:16 Probable meaning (compare Septuagint and Deuteronomy 24:1-4); or “The Lord, the God of Israel, says that he hates divorce, and him who covers

    If you have a problem with this rendering, I suggest you take it up with the ESV translation committee led by Dr. J. I. Packer, ESV General Editor. I must say I find it highly amusing that this group of highly conservative scholars are being accused of corrupting the Bible by people who show no signs of understanding the difficult Hebrew language and translation problems which they are wrestling with.

    Meanwhile, Ray, have you picked on all the divorced and remarried people in your own church, shown compassion for their children, and had them put out of the church? If not, put your own house “in order” before presuming to do the same to someone else’s.

  70. Peter, you have permitted 2 posts from Kathi 30/3/09 246944 and 247105 that directly accuse other contributors as being affected by evil spirits.

    This is a glaring contradiction of your own policy to not permit unsubstantiated personal attacks to yourself or other contributors.

    You have already stated your own disagreement with the ideas of the 2 people Kathi has abused (disciple and ray), so it is suspicious to observe you to let those abuses remain.
    It looks like glaring hypocrisy in comparison with the standard you USUALLY enforce in your blog.

    Shouldn’t you should remove those posts along with a warning to Kathi, to demonstrate integrity by maintaining consistency with your policy?

    If they are left there, then it would just indicate your blog is not a forum of true debate, but a place of bigotry and abuse towards anyone who disagrees with your beliefs.

  71. >> If you have a problem with this rendering Mal 2:16 …. ESV translation

    The effect of that passage is to associate divorce with “covering yourself with violence and being faithless”, which are things God hates.
    This indicates divorce is to be avoided by people who want to please God.

    The only reason people divorce is to make way for a “remarriage”, which is the real PAYLOAD OF UNFAITHFULNESS and consummation of adultery.

    >> Meanwhile, Ray, have you picked on all the divorced and remarried people……….

    Peter this is a debate forum on scriptural interpretation. On this thread it is applied to the topic “Todd Bentley has remarried, probably.”

    You have strayed completely off the topic to be attempting an intrusion into a contributors personal life.
    You have represented yourself as a Christian who holds the Bible as priority and the opinions of people second, which means debate will occur.

    Shouldn’t you delete those “off topic” comments made to Ray?
    >> put your own house “in order” before presuming to do the same to someone else’s

    That is a bullying stance.
    People will put “their own houses in order” if they can see sound Biblical support to justify it and their heart is willing.

    There is a strong case for Todd Bentley to recant his relationship to Jessa Hasbrook for being unfaithfulness to the marriage vows made to his wife Shonnah Bentley.
    Ray and others have added support to that case.

    Readers, including Todd Bentley, are then left to consider the merits of different sides in the debate.

    >> I am reminded that the devil as well as Jesus quoted Scripture in the wilderness. But only one of them ever used Scripture to condemn individuals.

    It is impossible for any person to actually condemn another, as scripture has the priority, and the accusation of people second. If any person ever asserts an invalid accusation that doesn’t line up with scripture, then the receiver can ignore it.
    If Todd Bentley doesn’t agree with the accusation of adultery, then he can ignore it. If he is walking in God’s way, then God will establish the way through such accusation.
    Kathi has made judgements of Ray and Disciple being demon influenced, which those individuals can simply ignore if they are confident of their standing in comparison to scripture.

    Peter, if you let contributors directly accuse you or other contributors of being guided by demons for having a different interpretation, then your blog will quickly gain a reputation as a den of abuse towards people who don’t agree with your views.

    Isn’t that bigotry?

  72. If they are left there, then it would just indicate your blog is not a forum of true debate, but a place of bigotry and abuse towards anyone who disagrees with your beliefs.

    Peter, if you let contributors directly accuse you or other contributors of being guided by demons for having a different interpretation,

    I don’t object to the interpretation of anyone here regarding the subject of divorce and remarriage – though I may disagree. (For example, I disagree with what Peter is bringing out, though it’s well-presented and very interesting).

    What I object to is this nasty, malicious, destructive attitude.

    I have yet to see any of TB’s detractors simply do what the Bible simply says to do in these situations. Instead, they’re using the internet as a vehicle to spread gossip, hate, and discord among the brethren. And that, folks, is precisely what the devil wants.

    You can call it sin, a bad attitude, or a demon (or a purple striped cucumber) if you like, but don’t pretend that everything is sunshine and roses because you are “confronting Todd Bentley’s sin”. You’re not. You’re gossiping, slandering, and abusing the body of Christ.

    If you TRULY believe what you have been putting forth here, make an appointment to see Todd personally about it. Otherwise, God says to cease and desist.

  73. An aside to Peter – if I have, in fact, violated the terms of your blog, I apologize. I stand by my comments 100%, but will not be at all insulted or hurt if you feel that it’s better to remove them.

    If time allows, I’ll be writing about some of this either on my blog or on the Hunting Heresy Hunters blog later today – some of your readers may be interested in what I have to say.

  74. Edge and Bluesky, I agree that Kathi has made personal negative comments, but so has almost everyone who has contributed to this thread. It would be unfair of me to censor Kathi without censoring all those people who have said negative things about Todd and others. I prefer to let all the comments stand. But please, all my commenters, don’t continue in this vein.

    Bluesky, are you asking Todd to go back on the marriage vows he made to Jessa? That would compound one sin with another. I note that it is very clear in the Bible that someone who divorces a woman and marries again can never go back to his first wife.

    Kathi, I entirely agree about people

    using the internet as a vehicle to spread gossip, hate, and discord among the brethren. And that, folks, is precisely what the devil wants.

    Those who do what the devil wants are being guided by him, even if entirely unintentionally.

  75. >> Bluesky, are you asking Todd to go back on the marriage vows he made to Jessa

    They may not be marriage vows. They might be adultery vows for an ADULTERY COVENANT, as for a Satanic rite, whether by co-incidence or intention.
    THE HOLY SPIRIT via SCRIPTURE seems to be asking Todd Bentley to renounce the ungodly covenant, leave Jessa Hasbrook, and either reconcile with Shonnah Bentley, or have no other marriage type relationship until he does.
    The scriptures to support that are given in detail in post 235898 by Rose on 10/3/09 6:12 am, as well as via the web links given by 246540 “Search your Bible” on 29/3/09.
    Peter, you are supporting more flexible interpretations, which although convenient, are not safe before a Holy God.

  76. Kathi, your affirmation of ministry from Lakeland Revival (post 236233 of 10/3/09….
    >> I was healed as a direct result of the Lakeland revival.
    >> What’s more, my husband and I (and a number of others) received an impartation from God through Todd’s ministry.
    ….. may explain your indignation of critique of Todd Bentley, and your confidence to assert critiquers as demon influenced.

    >> If you TRULY believe what you have been putting forth here, make an appointment to see Todd personally about it

    That is not necessary, as Todd had a PUBLIC ministry and his promoters, particularly Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets and Rick Joyner have all PUBLICLY affirmed the spirit that motivated Todd, and endorsed continuation of his “marriage” to Jessa Hasbrook.
    Any Christian in the world is entitled to PUBLICLY critique Todd Bentley if they are confident of their scriptural understanding. They should also do that if they believe God prompts them, which becomes a personal guidance issue.
    Obviously these conflicts interfere with unity, but unity is worthless unless it is with truth.
    Eph 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE THEM.
    Christians must fight to the death for truth, meaning they should speak up, even if it costs them their life, and this includes speaking out against frauds masquerading as “Christian”.
    Todd Bentley taught lies, eg. angel of finance, predicting Jesus was going to appear on stage, claims of miraculous healings that couldn’t be medically verified.
    From experience and revelation, I no longer accept ANY MINISTRY that is accompanied with manifestations that are similar to mental illness / drunken / drugged, as they are a MOCKERY of the Holy Spirit, God, Jesus Christ, and scripture. (Things like vibrating, twitching, groaning, shrieking, roaring, gibberish speech and sound effects, animal acts – dogs, snakes chickens, lions, pigs, etc., staggering about, falling over, uncontrollable/irrational laughter, etc.) Todd Bentley continuously presented himself in some of these ways. Turning up for ministry drunk/drugged (spiritual or chemical) is unacceptable.
    Todd vanished from Lakeland soon after some journalists enquired for medical document verification evidence of authentic miracles to write a story about.
    Shortly after, news emerged that he had been having an “affair” with someone in his organisation, which he has since confirmed and consummated through a full “marriage relationship” declaration.

    Is it OK for husbands to announce that God is leading them to a new “ministry” with someone else, which includes making marriage type vows to them?

    Should their abandoned spouses then just look for someone else?
    And if that didn’t work out then go to another?
    And another?

    This is the REALITY for many UNBELIEVERS, so why are church people promoting it under the banner of “God’s grace”, and fraudulent repentance (saying “sorry” for the past, but continuing to live in the new “remarriages”).

    Jude 1:4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who CHANGE THE GRACE of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    (They mention Jesus Christ in name, but their preaching and practices represent a FALSE Christ.)

    Todd Bentley’s example, and Peter Wagner and Rick Joyner’s affirmation for him to continue with Jessa Hasbrook, promotes the belief that God has grace for marriage vows to be ignored if the “spirit” leads them to move on to someone else.

    But that “spirit” can’t be the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit gave scripture with the command “you shall not commit adultery” and “at the beginning the Creator made them male and female, and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’ So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, LET MAN NOT SEPARATE.” (Matthew 19:4-6)

    Kathi, if you think it is OK for Todd Bentley to continue with Jessa Hasbrook, then surely you can’t complain if your husband leaves you for another?
    That would be a fair “reaping of what you are sowing” for trying to block critiques of Todd Bentley’s continued relationship with Jessa Hasbrook.

    The critiquers are being witnesses of righteousness, so Kathi you are wrong to criticise them as motivated by the Devil.

    Kathi, you accuse people who give warning or challenge things as being nasty, malicious, and destructive.
    But what if they are simply warning of danger, like a Father who warns his daughter about certain men who live in ways that mean they are dangerous to be involved with?

    What if the “bride of Christ” (authentic Christians) are being approached for ministry from familiar spirits?
    They are dangerous to be involved with.

    Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have FAMILIAR SPIRITS, neither seek after WIZARDS, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

    Was Todd Bentley practicing wizardry through his claims of supernatural encounters that produced teachings conflicting with scripture?

  77. Bluesky, are you saying it is “safe” to go against the explicit teaching of Deuteronomy 24:4 and do something “detestable in the eyes of the LORD”? OK, the situation with Todd is reversed but I think the point is that God, while not banning divorce and remarriage, does ban returning to one’s first wife after divorce and remarriage.

    Edge, since you kindly reminded me of my policy not to allow personal attacks on this blog, please abide by that policy yourself by stopping attacking Kathi, as well as Todd and other prominent leaders who are currently working with him.

  78. >> I note that it is very clear in the Bible that someone who divorces a woman and marries again can never go back to his first wife.

    The scriptures you are TRYING to use to support that are in the old Testament. The New Testament has raised the requirements, and reminded what God wanted ALL ALONG – “what God has joined let no man separate”.
    If you insist on following all pre Messiah (old testament) counsel about marriage then effectively you are DENYING JESUS CHRIST who gave the post Messiah (new testament) counsel.
    There are some things commanded in the Old Testament that would be DISOBEDIENCE if we followed them now (eg. circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.).

    Jesus RAISED THE STANDARD in the New Testament: “Moses permitted you to……. but……… I tell you…………”. (Matt 19:8-9)
    The New Testament goes on to assert many aspects of marriage which all line up BEST with “absolutely no divorce and remarriage for Christians”. See scriptures given in the post from Rose 10/3/09

    Peter, your reasonings are implying that it is OK to have as many divorces and “remarriages” as the “spirit” leads (what Todd Bentley has done), including marrying other divorced people (what Jessa Hasbrook has done), but that you must NEVER return to the FIRST SPOUSE that marriage vows were made to (“can never go back to his first wife”).

    That is teaching PROMISCUITY.

    UNBELIEVERS who know little Bible would easily make that conclusion about your ideas.
    They must think it strange for church people calling themselves Christians to promote such things.

    Promiscuity definition:
    CONSTANTLY MOVING ON from one marriage type relationship to another, and NEVER recanting by returning to the one that vows of faithfulness were FIRST MADE TO. Famous Satanist Aleister Crowley practiced this method http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley

    Peter, your arguments are teaching a DOCTRINE OF PROMISCUITY and UNFAITHFULNESS which is the devil’s realm.

    The first spouse you make marriage vows of faithfulness to is the ONLY TRUE MARRIAGE. Subsequent vows made to any other, while the first is still alive, are just a contradiction. Vows cannot be “rubbed out”, so divorce is a lie, and should be repented of.
    No wonder God says he hates divorce, as it is an affront to truth and faithfulness. The Devil loves divorce because he is the father of lies and broken vows.

    Adultery is the consummation of lies and unfaithfulness, so repentance for Todd Bentley includes leaving Jessa Hasbrook, and having marriage relationship with no one but Shonnah Bentley.

    The Christian life is hard:

    Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

  79. Bluesky, you have now shown clearly what I suspected before, that you are a Marcionite who believes that Old Testament teaching is false and of the devil, in your own words “teaching a DOCTRINE OF PROMISCUITY and UNFAITHFULNESS which is the devil’s realm”. Jesus never said that kind of thing about the Law of Moses, rather that not one jot or tittle of it would pass away.

  80. Break down Deut 24:1-4 and compare it with other OT passages and NT passages, and see if it really means what you think it does.

    First of all, let’s look at the nature of OT marriage. Men could have many wives (it was tolerated by God and was never spoken of as “adulterous,” though we can see that first wives were considered FIRST by God, though not necessarily loved best by the husband (as in Jacob’s case). Women could NOT lawfully be polygamous.

    In the NT teachings of marriage by Paul and Jesus, marriage was brought back to 1 man and 1 woman for life. Polygamy, not only is against the law civilly, but is also against Jesus teaching on creation marriage. So, to be involved in polygamy in the NT would make you an adulterer or adulteress, since God only sees the first wife as the one He joined the husband to.

    Here in Deut. 24 we see that a man marries, takes his wife to his home, then finds that she is “unclean”. He rejects her, giving her a certificate of divorce, sends her away, then she becomes another man’s wife. The next husband then has the option of divorcing her because he “hates” her, then she is free to remarry or if the second husband dies, she is free to remarry, but she can never go back to the first husband.

    We must ask ourselves these questions: In the OT teachings on marriage, do we see that she committed adultery by marrying the second husband while her first husband was still alive? No she did not, but in the NT Jesus says something very different…”whosoever marries her that is put away, commits adultery.” So in the NT people were charged with adultery when they divorced and remarried, but in the OT they were not. Something changed. Jesus was bringing back marriage to God’s original plan from Genesis. No more polygamy, no more divorce and remarriage, from now on you will be charged with adultery if you remarry after a divorce because the original marriage vows joined you for life.

  81. In Deut. 24, a man cannot take his wife back because she was defiled, however, let’s go to Jer. 3:1 to see what the Lord ultimately thought about receiving back one who is “defiled”:

    “They say, if a man divorces his wife, and she goes from him and becomes another man’s, may he return to her again? Would not the land be greatly polluted? (Then God says) But you have played the harlot with many lovers; Yet return to me, says the Lord.”

    He asked her to return. Interesting the Lord would use Deut. 24 in such a way saying that even though one is DEFILED, He wants them back and leaves the door open to that.

    Now we go to Mal. 2:10-17. A “priest” has divorced the wife of his youth (his covenant wife) and then has taken a heathen woman as his second wife. The priest goes to the altar to bring his offerings and he covers the altar with his tears and weeping. What does the Lord say? He does not regard the offering ANYMORE, nor receive it with goodwill.

    Why? Because he has put away the wife of his youth. The Lord says this after the divorce… “She is your companion and your wife by covenant.” God was still calling her his wife after he divorced her.

    We also see here that it is in regards to COVENANT spouses that the Lord says He hates divorces. Many like to say that God hates ALL divorce, but that is not true. God does not hate the putting away of unlawful partners. As a matter of fact, true repentance requires the putting away of unlawful relationships. Herod and Herodias were in an unlawful marriage and John the Baptist kept telling them so.

    http://www.cadz.net/remarriage.html

  82. Everyone knows John the Baptist was beheaded, but do they know why?

    John the Baptist was beheaded because of the rage Herodias had for him, since John kept telling Herod, the one she remarried, that it was not lawful for him to have her. Herodias was legally divorced by Roman law but John the Baptist said, she was still Phillip’s wife, not Herod’s after a divorce and remarriage.

    Every Easter the movie “Jesus of Nazareth” is shown on the History Channel in the United States. Michael York plays John the Baptist, you can watch this scene played out, as John confronts Herod and Herodias and calls their remarriage adulterous!

    Check out the scene below. Pay close attention to John the Baptist’s words as he warns them.

    WATCH THIS SCENE, IT IS WELL WORTH IT…

    http://tinyurl.com/dg3vbk

    They both divorced their spouses and married each other. This movie is shown on TV in the US every Easter and it is pumped into thousands of homes and no one gets it… John is calling remarriage adultery and telling Herod that he can not keep Herodias because their marriage is unlawful. Does this go over everyone’s head?

    John said it was not lawful for Herod to have her, in other words, Herod was NOT ALLOWED TO KEEP HER, even if he married her after a divorce, she still belonged to Phillip. The churches aren’t teaching it and many people are suffering because of it.

    Jesus did not leave us in the dark concerning this subject. Most people do not take the time to research this or find out the truth.

    http://www.cadz.net/remarriage.html

  83. Search Your Bible, thank you for your comments. But I think that you too are assuming that Old Testament marriage law was abolished by Jesus despite his explicit denial of doing so.

  84. “Loving the truth” includes taking care to correctly represent the beliefs others have stated.

    >> you are a Marcionite who believes that Old Testament teaching is false and of the devil

    I have NEVER asserted and don’t believe that old Testament teaching is false or the law of Moses has been done away with.

    That is a misrepresentation of my beliefs.

    You do this regularly with people who state Bible interpretations you disagree with.

    >> DOCTRINE OF PROMISCUITY and UNFAITHFULNESS which is the devil’s realm Jesus never said that kind of thing about the Law of Moses

    I never asserted Jesus said that.

    You are putting up “straw men” that misrepresent someone’s belief. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

    True debate is where you stick to representing the reason for YOUR OWN beliefs and don’t misrepresent the beliefs of others.

  85. >> the Law of Moses …..not one jot or tittle of it would pass away

    The law of Moses must now be interpreted in the additional context of New Testament scripture, especially with Jesus’ statements that RAISE THE STANDARD EVEN HIGHER.
    The law says you shall not commit adultery, BUT I SAY anyone who looks at a woman in lust commits adultery. (Matt 5:27-28)

    That is an example of RAISING THE STANDARD of the Law, rather than doing away with it.

    Raising the standard for marriage:
    =========================

    Matt 19:8-10 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I SAY UNTO YOU, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (KJV)

    Fornication can only apply to couples ENGAGED (betrothed) to be married, because if they were married the different word “adultery” would have been used.
    (NIV and some other translations mistranslate “fornication” to “adultery”, which is wrong because each word is distinct in the original language: porneia = fornication, moicheia = adultery).

    Jesus is stating that YOU CAN ONLY CANCEL ENGAGEMENTS if one commits fornication.

    Therefore, once you are married, if the other commits adultery, you can’t divorce and “remarry”, according to the RAISED STANDARD Jesus has given in the New Testament.

    That is why the reply “The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” (Matt 19:10)

    The RAISED STANDARD is hard to live, but not impossible, with God’s help through his encouragement in scripture.

    Hebrews 10:36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

    Fulfilling GOD’S INTENT is the primary goal of Bible interpreting.

    Man often has agendas to try and FIND SCRIPTURE LOOPHOLES, which DEFRAUD GOD of his intent.
    “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! …… you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.” (Mark 7:9-13)

    Teachings that justify divorce and “remarriage” in the New Testament era are based on improper scripture interpretation that DEFRAUD GOD of what he intended be followed.

    If the teachers had more fear of the Lord, then they wouldn’t do that.

    1 Sam 12:24 ..be sure to FEAR THE LORD and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you.
    Psalm 33:8 Let all the earth FEAR THE LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.
    Psalm 34:9 FEAR THE LORD, you his saints, for those who fear him lack nothing.
    Psalm 128:1 Blessed are all who FEAR THE LORD, who walk in his ways.
    Prov 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; FEAR THE LORD and shun evil.

    2 Cor 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to FEAR THE LORD, we try to persuade men.

  86. No, Bluesky, Jesus never said that the Law of Moses was “DOCTRINE OF PROMISCUITY and UNFAITHFULNESS which is the devil’s realm”, but you said that about my teaching which was directly taken from that law, Deuteronomy 24:4. You suggest that Jesus raised the standard higher, and with some qualifications I agree, but in this particular case you seem to argue for a lower standard by allowing returning to one’s first wife after divorce and remarriage, something which is described in the Law as “detestable in the eyes of the LORD”. You are the one who is trying to find loopholes in the Bible to justify what you are asking Todd to do.

  87. Edge, with respect, I don’t think you know a whole lot about the occult. I do – firsthand. There was no occult at Lakeland – but a whole lot of biblical Christianity in action. Healings? Check. Angels? Check. (yep – saw some) Prophecy? Check. Glory cloud? Check. People falling over? Check. Visions of Jesus? Check. Gospel of the Kingdom? Check. And so on.

    May I suggest that you work your way slowly through the Book of Acts, and write down each and every supernatural encounter there? I did this shortly after the revival started, and was absolutely amazed at what I found.

    Now, as to your charge that if one has a public ministry, they can be confronted publicly on the internet, without going to them first or at least being in conversation with them – can you show me that from Scripture?

  88. Look, guys.

    EITHER Todd sinned some and repented, or Todd sinned some, then sinned some more, and then repented.

    Either way, his sin is forgiven if his repentance is genuine, and I believe that it is.

    If Todd’s sin is forgiven then it is not a sin for him to be married to Jessa.

    Period, end of story.

    All of you who have such a problem with Todd, perhaps you should spend more time speaking to his Boss than talking gossiping about him online.

  89. Peter and Kathi:

    You guys are so amusing. Both using the same tactic of not addressing the message of the issues or questions but instead launching a personal attack on the messenger with unfounded, unsubstantiated accusations based on little or no facts.

    Let me tell you just a little teensy-weensy bit about ourselves, my wife and I that is that have been married over 39 years. We have lived in the same small modest home for almost 40 years even though we could afford much, much better. We are both professionals. We have owned the same 2 vehicles for 15 and 16 years respectively. In other words we live very humbly by North American standards. Materialistic objects mean NOTHING to us. We only use them to accomplish our mission. We choose instead to support widows, orphans and the needy directly, not through the church which has failed miserably in this mission commanded by the scriptures. We have done this to the tune of thousands of dollars I might add over the past number of years. I say these things not to brag but to inform you of where I am coming from. This is provided so you can make an informed judgment decision regarding your personal attacks against us.

    The reason we live this lifestyle is because of the absolutely miraculous encounters that have occurred in our lives over the years, very few of which have occurred in a “church”, or any type of “christian” gathering. Most have occurred in our home after many, many hours, and in some instances years, of prayer for truth to be revealed. In other words we do not rely on someone else to “connect” us with the Creator. We go directly to Him as the Word states. These did not come easy for us but I recognize that does not have to be the case for other folks. After one of these encounters we soon realized obedience to the Word is of utmost priority – as Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments – all of them. You also realize God is very, very, holy and will reveal truth in a measure that you must walk in. Once you have proven you will walk in that measure of truth He will give you more and more challenges to reveal more truth.

    These have turned our spiritual world upside down. They have led us to leave the organized church because of the hypocrisy within the church of “do as I say, not as I do“- same philosophy as the Pharisees. We now meet with a small group of like minded believers so there is no need to “put out
    anyone” out of the group.

    Peter you are hinting that I do not practice what I preach when you refer to putting someone out of my church. You know very well that I, nor you, nor any one individual can put someone out of the church. There is a church hierarchy and those that rule are the only ones that have such power.

  90. Kathi:

    You appear to be pointing a very accusing finger at me by stating that I am doing Satan’s work. Boy talk about treading on very dangerous territory.

    Paul and Barnabas had such a sharp disagreement that they caused a division between themselves – they went their separate ways!

    Martin Luther caused division – the Catholic church still believes ALL protestant churches have no apostolic authority. Only the Catholic church has authority in this area because they believe it was passed down to them by the apostle Peter and “only” they have it. So Luther’s division exists to this day.

    The Christian crusaders put to death those that would not accept their brand of truth. They certainly caused division. Were they doing the “work” of God or that of the enemy? They certainly believed they had “truth” on their side.

    The protestant church has thousands of different denominations, or you could say divisions – all based on different interpretation of what is truth.

    So the examples above prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the history of the church is one of division. So using you logic I guess you could say the church has been doing the devil’s work for more than a thousand years?

    What this is all about is the pursuit of the truth. This thing with Todd is NOTHING new! It is NOT a personal attack on Todd. You feel you have the truth on your side and others feel they have it on their side. Let us reason without making outrageous false personal attacks. There is no need to make a vicious accusation against another believer that they are doing Satan’s work. I would never say such a thing because I will have to defend such a statement on judgment day. However differences in Scripture interpretation is a different matter. Just because we disagree with one another on scriptural interpretation does necessarily mean one of us is doing the Devil’s work. This seems to be your position because anyone that does not believe as you is branded as doing Satan’s work. Scripture tells us to be gentle in leading others to what you consider is truth.

  91. My last word on this is to say I only long for the day that I will hear these words: “Well done good and faithful servant”!!

  92. Ray, thank you for sharing your story. I really appreciate all the good works that you have done. But remember that Paul wrote that such sacrifices, even to the extent of martyrdom, are of no value if not accompanied by love. Examine your heart. Do you love Todd Bentley? Do you want to see him repent and be restored to effective ministry? If you do not, then I have to wonder if Kathi’s accusation is correct.

    Yes, every division in the church is the devil’s work, although not everyone involved is to blame every time, and God can bring good out of this. The Crusaders certainly did the devil’s work, stirring up a completely justified hatred against all Christians in the Arab world which has lasted for nearly a millennium. And those who call themselves Christians but refuse to love their brothers and sisters who have gone astray but instead use hatred and bitterness to stir up divisions in the church are also doing the devil’s work. If the cap fits, wear it.

  93. >> Examine your heart. Do you love Todd Bentley?

    Anyone who loves Todd Bentley SHOULD CRITICISE HIS ADULTEROUS RELATIONSHIP with Jessa Hasbrook, and encourage him to return to his marriage vows made to Shonnah Bentley.

    >> If Todd’s sin is forgiven then it is not a sin for him to be married to Jessa.

    Todd’s sin is not forgiven UNTIL he returns to his marriage vows made to Shonnah Bentley.
    That is TRUE REPENTANCE, rather than giving lip service “sorry I messed up”, then continuing with the relationship to Jessa Hasbrook.

    >> Period, end of story.

    It might be the end of Kathi’s story, but it isn’t the end of the story if there is a conflict with God’s word in the Bible.

    >> use hatred and bitterness to stir up divisions

    The people with the most bullying tactics (eg. setting up “straw men” – misrepresenting beliefs of others, and accusing others of being devil influenced) in this debate seem to be those who support Todd Bentley CONTINUE the relationship with Jessa Hasbrook.

    >> All of you who have such a problem with Todd, perhaps you should spend more time speaking to his Boss

    The Boss has ALREADY SPOKEN through scripture that Todd Bentley is STILL VIOLATING marriage vows made to his wife Shonna Bentley.

    >> Now, as to your charge that if one has a public ministry, they can be confronted publicly on the internet, without going to them first or at least being in conversation with them

    The internet isn’t mentioned in the Bible, so it is going to be a judgement call, personal conviction, and inner prompting, about how public to go in challenging Todd Bentley.

    Todd Bentley’s promoters (Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Rick Joyner, etc.) have PUBLICLY AFFIRMED continuation of Todd Bentley’s “remarriage”, therefore they have COMPROMISED GOD’S WORD through scripture TO THE WORLD.
    I suggest PUBLIC CHALLENGE against that false witness from every Christian in the world who feels led to would be appropriate.
    This would be a stand of AUTHENTICITY for every member of the “bride of Christ”, and a good witness of truth to the unbelieving world.

    The world laughs at God and the church when they see an obvious charlatan like Todd Bentley leaving his wife to go to another. Google “Todd Bentley fraud”.

    >> Healings? Check. Angels? Check. (yep – saw some) Prophecy? Check. Glory cloud? Check. People falling over? Check. Visions of Jesus? Check. Gospel of the Kingdom? Check. And so on.

    These must have been counterfeits, as the fruit of Todd Bentley’s ministry was: Adultery – Check, Lying – Check, Loving money – Check, False teaching – Check, and False prophecy – Check, which indicates the source of the manifestations was not God.

    Eg. Speaking to the “angel of finance”, predicting Jesus was going to turn up on stage, failure to prove healing miracles.

    2 Thes 2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of COUNTERFEIT miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

  94. Bluesky, indeed the Internet is not mentioned in the Bible, but publication of rumours is, and is forbidden as gossip. Matthew 19:17 authorises telling the church, not the world, about others’ sins, but only after personal confrontation.

    Please give me some links or other evidence for where Peter Wagner and Dutch Sheets have affirmed, or commented on in any way, Todd’s remarriage. If you cannot then I have to presume that you are publishing unsubstantiated libels against these two respected Christian leaders. Rick Joyner’s position is well known from the videos that I have linked to, and it is not to affirm Todd’s remarriage.

    Let me repeat to you both my questions to Ray: Do you love Todd Bentley? Do you want to see him repent and be restored to effective ministry? I await your answer to the second question.

  95. >> every division in the church is the devil’s work

    Sometimes divisions are not the devils work, they are God’s work to determine who his true followers are:

    Matthew 10:34-39 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law–a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
    “Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.”

    John 6:63-66 …The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him.” From this time MANY OF HIS DISCIPLES TURNED BACK and no longer followed him.

    “Turning back” in that scenario is DIVISION THAT JESUS DELIBERATELY PROVOKED through his teaching.

    God’s word through scripture CONTINUES TO DIVIDE THE CHURCH, to cleanse it from corruption.

    God commands people to SEPARATE from compromise:
    Rev 18:2-4 With a mighty voice he shouted: “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great! ……….. “COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues…

    The Protestant Reformation involving Martin Luther was a SEPARATING from the corrupt teachings and practices of the Roman Catholic church.
    Unity is worthless unless it is unity with TRUTH.
    God REJECTS unity with compromise.
    This becomes a struggle between who owns our soul – God or the Devil.
    The Devil gains control through compromise, God owns those who seek truth without compromise:
    Rev 3:15-16 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm–neither hot nor cold–I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    This warning is given to Christian believers.
    Repent from being lukewarm (compromising)!

  96. Jesus’ statement in Matthew 19:3-9 RULES OUT DIVORCES (apart from fornication as the grounds for cancelling engagements) and therefore fulfil God’s ORIGINAL INTENTION for marriage.
    This SUPERSEDES the instructions about divorce given in the old Testament.

    Peter, you are trying to use Old Testament divorce instructions that have been SUPERSEDED.
    Not cancelled.
    SUPERSEDED by raising the standard to achieve what God ORIGINALLY WANTED.

    It is now possible to achieve what God originally wanted because of Christ’s finished work on the cross.

    Who are you to argue with God and try to force him back to old covenant instructions that didn’t fulfil his original intentions?

    God has repeatedly said that he hates divorce.
    It is defiant for you to effectively insist that God will just have to put up with it in the church.

  97. Edge, do you think Jesus wanted many of his disciples to turn back? Didn’t he want them all to follow? I’m sure he could have predicted what would happen, but wasn’t it the devil’s work, directly or indirectly, for all those people to turn away from Jesus? Of course it can be right to provoke a crisis so that the devil’s work is forced out of the church. I am not an advocate of compromise. But it is never God’s work for people, even those who the devil has captive, to leave the church rather than repent and follow God’s way.

    Disciple, by saying that Old Testament commands have been “SUPERSEDED” you are clearly showing yourself to be a Marcionite heretic. And by your own standard the ONE (dubiously translated) place where God says that he hates divorce has been SUPERSEDED, as it is in the Old Testament.

  98. >> Rick Joyner’s position is ……….not to affirm Todd’s remarriage
    >> Please give me some links or other evidence for where Peter Wagner and Dutch Sheets have affirmed, or commented on in any way, Todd’s remarriage

    Mentioning Peter Wagner and Dutch Sheets in that sentence was an error on my part and I accept you challenging the validity. I assumed they would agree with the Todd Bentley “remarriage” because they are part of the Todd Bentley connected revival network.
    Maybe Rick Joyner is the sole spokesperson from that network for statements about the Todd Bentley “remarriage”.

    Therefore the paragraph you noticed in my post 251271 should read:

    Rick Joyner has PUBLICLY AFFIRMED Todd Bentley’s “remarriage” by FAILING TO CONDEMN IT AS AN ADULTERY for as long as that relationship continues.
    In doing that he has COMPROMISED GOD’S WORD through scripture TO THE WORLD.
    I suggest PUBLIC CHALLENGE against that false witness from every Christian in the world who feels led to would be appropriate.
    This would be a stand of AUTHENTICITY for every member of the “bride of Christ”, and a good witness of truth to the unbelieving world.

    This whole debate seems more about representing God’s word than about Todd Bentley’s marriage situation.
    Todd Bentley is an adult capable of making his own decisions about how he will live.

    Biblical standards are required if he is to be involved in Christian ministry.
    The PUBLIC are debating what that standard should be.
    The reasoning and scriptural interpretations given in both sides of the argument enable people to take sides about a “revival” in the church that Peter Wagner, Dutch Sheets, Rick Joyner and like minded people are promoting.

    Some are saying it is a move of God of Genesis 1:1.

    Others are saying it is a move of “the god of this age” (2 Cor 4:4) or “prince of this world” (John 16:11) for a false church that follows a false Christ, and fulfils scriptures like:
    2 Thes 2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

    Matthew 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.

    Acts 20:29-31 …… savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! …..

    When God’s word is wrongly used, then sins are committed and the church is corrupted.

    Todd Bentleys continued relationship with Jessa Hasbrook is sinful for reasons already given, eg. the posts about “adultery covenant” and false repentance (lip service: “sorry I messed up”, then continuing with the relationship to Jessa Hasbrook).

    >> Do you love Todd Bentley? Do you want to see him repent

    Anyone who loves Todd Bentley SHOULD CRITICISE HIS ADULTEROUS RELATIONSHIP with Jessa Hasbrook, and ENCOURAGE HIM TO REPENT by returning to his marriage vows made to Shonnah Bentley.

  99. I note with interest that Bluesky, Edge7K and Disciple are all posting comments today from the same IP address in Christchurch, New Zealand. Looking back through the comments on this thread, I find that there is another IP address in the same city from which these same three and also Seeker3 have commented, mostly on this thread but also with some comments on A mystic or nothing at all.

    I can’t help wondering if these are in fact four different names for the same person. If so, I consider this to be deceptive and so an abuse of the commenting facilities which I provide here.

    Between them they have made 22 comments on this post as well as 8 on the other one, most of them rather long for comments and with a considerable amount of repetition. I consider that to be more than enough for two threads.

    I will not accept any more comments from any of these four, or from anyone else using one of these IP addresses, until and unless I receive a proper explanation of how it is that four separate individuals are sharing IP addresses in the same way. Even then I will expect to see some new points being made in any further comments, not just repetition of what they have said before.

  100. Bluesky, I accept your apology concerning Peter Wagner and Dutch Sheets. Indeed there are some connections between all these leaders, but they do not agree on all things as I think you will clearly find if you look into the comments these two have made. Before you continue to preach about false witness, I think you should examine yourself and your alter egos (see the previous comment) about avoiding false witness concerning your own apparently multiple identity.

  101. >> I can’t help wondering if these are in fact four different names for the same person

    Conspiracy theories.
    In my post of 247419 I suggested you delete Kathi’s posts that contained absolutely no relevant debate but accusation of demon influence towards two other contributors.

    >> Edge, do you think Jesus wanted many of his disciples to turn back? Didn’t he want them all to follow?

    God our Savior, who WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and to come to a knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim 2:3-4)

    “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and ONLY A FEW find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

    Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, WE TRY TO PERSUADE MEN. (2 Cor 5:11)

    The possible contradiction between “wants all men to be saved” and “only a few find it” is solved on an INDIVIDUAL BASIS simply by how much “fear of the Lord” a person has towards repenting for salvation and staying in salvation. The fear of the Lord is the KEY, see http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=fear%20of%20the%20lord&version1=31&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no
    Fear of the Lord can be increased with good preaching from the Bible.
    If you had more fear of the Lord, then you would not support ANY divorces and “remarriages” for Christians.
    The fact this practice is rife in the Christian church shows the church has been devoid of the fear of the Lord for a long time. Instead of grace being opportunity to repent of sin, it is a licence for moral flexibility. Criticism of that is often labeled “legalistic”.

    When there is little fear of the Lord theologians waste their cleverness seeking scriptural loopholes to suit the schemes of men, which in the end become the schemes of the devil.

  102. Edge, I have evidence of a conspiracy between you, Bluesky, Disciple and Seeker3, if you are not actually the same person. Also this is my blog so I lay down the rules, which include that multiple identities of this kind are not permitted. I will not allow any more comments from any of the four of you, or from any other identity at any of the IP addresses which you have used, until you (singular or plural whichever fits) give a proper answer to my question about your identity or identities. If you come clean in an apologetic manner about being one person, and give a single real name, I may allow you to continue to comment. Or if you are four different people please explain how you are related. But I will not allow you to continue to deceive my readers.

  103. Peter you seem to have a very shallow understanding of what the devil’s work is when it comes to division within the church. BTW I consider the whole body to be the church not just the organized church – I do not know what you define as “the church” when you state: “ Yes, every division in the church is the devil’s work,”.

    As I understand your argument you would dare chastise Paul, Barnabas and Luther for doing the devil’s work since they all caused division in the church! It appears as though I am in good company. Jesus would almost most certainly be accused of doing the “devil’s work“ according to your definition above. I agree totally with edge37 on this. As edge37 outlined, Matthew 10:34-39 and John 6: 63-66 make it very, very clear that Jesus caused division in the church.

    I cannot believe you are questioning my heart as if you are on some superior spiritual level compared to me. I think the scriptures make it clear that only God knows the heart – and you are not God. I thought my last posts made it very clear of my motives for what I do. I exam my heart EVERY day of my life.

    That is why I have remained married to my wife for over 39 years. It is obvious she is the “bride of my youth” – it is because of love.

    That is why we help those more unfortunate than us – because of love.

    That is why shed tears and pray for our community as we walk the streets on cold, cold, snowy Canadian winter nights – because of love.

    That is why we volunteer our time to serve food in a local food kitchen – because of love.

    That is why I have gone to mission fields to help orphans in “out of the way places” such as Siberia, living in the same poor accommodations as the orphans- because of love.

    That is why we help rescue abused animals and find/give them a good loving home – because of love.

    That is why I street witness and encourage youth in their faith – because of love. I might add here that my witnessing has ALWAYS been received favorably with never a negative comment. I think this is because I prepare myself with prayer before witnessing. I could almost write a book on my witnessing experiences if I wished to relate all of the wonderful stories.

    Also we have first hand knowledge of the types of things Kathi has related in connection with Lakeland. We “were” part of the Toronto Blessing and made many tough journeys down the “401” to attend many, many meetings. We sang and shouted, with the best of them, expressing our praise and LOVE to God with our lips. However we have left that movement because of what we consider “serious” errors that have crept in in the recent past.

    We continually seek His guidance in prayer so that we may walk in truth. Todd’s situation is included in this.

    I could go on and on but it appears as though it would just be wasted time so I will not be posting on Gentile Wisdom in the future, at least not in response to you.

    Edge and Bluesky I appreciate your posts. You are on very sound biblical grounds.

    Peter your discernment frankly disappoints me. You seem to be SOOO self righteous. And you know what Peter? Frankly I don’t care what you think. It is ONLY YOUR opinion. I only care about what God thinks! You are not my judge, He is!

  104. Ray, I do not chastise Luther because he tried to reform the church, not to divide it. It was those who persecuted him and drove him out who were doing the devil’s work. As for the division between Paul and Barnabas, we don’t know enough of the details to assign blame but it seems clear to me that the devil was very pleased to see their successful partnership break up – although in the end his plans were foiled by God’s superior wisdom.

    You are very fortunate that you still love your wife of 39 years and presumably she still loves you and is faithful. If you had been married for 39 years to a woman who slept around whenever she had the opportunity I think you might have a rather different idea about divorce.

    Since you accuse me of self-righteousness, although I have said very little about myself on this thread, perhaps I can point out how reminiscent your whole comment is of the Pharisee who prayed alongside the tax collector. Do you know what God thinks about that attitude?

    And one correction “Edge and Bluesky” should read “Edge aka Bluesky”. It seems that, in the absence of any denials, this person has been deceiving you and everyone else reading this blog. Do you still appreciate his or her comments?

  105. Ahh.

    Sometimes I get reminded of why so many in the church are beaten down, depressed, oppressed, and leaving in droves –

    This would be one of those days.

    Thanks for the reminder, guys!

  106. >> Edge, I have evidence of a conspiracy …………
    >> If you come clean…. and give a single real name……..

    I do not wish to permit intrusion into my life by revealing my identity, other than say I have position in the church, that if known, could affect “the level playing field” for contributions to blogs.
    It is common for some people who hold office in church or government to use a nom-de plume on blogs so that their status doesn’t unfairly intimidate the opinion of others or cause awkward feelings for others surrounding their regular church or government work (outside the blog).

    I am not the Pope, so relax, but I suggest it would be a good idea to remove the posts of Kathi YOU HAVE PERMITTED TO REMAIN that only contained ACCUSATION OF DEMON INFLUENCE towards your blog contributors.

    That method of dealing with a different opinion is unnaceptable in regular Christian etiquette.
    It seems advisable that anyone who posts to your blog should use anonymity to avoid the potential assignment of “demon influenced” against their REAL NAME. It is a form of cursing that Christians shouldn’t be practicing. Benny Hinn is well known for doing this – see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43kf1fZIdrs
    As far as your supposed investigation to identify the physical origin via IP addresses, that is a waste of time, as anyone can arrange re-routing for apparent source of their communications.
    I accept your decision about who you decide to block from your blog, there are plenty of others to contribute to. For me it has been useful to post views that are different than others, for the purpose of seeing what acceptable reasons may exist to refute my current understanding.
    I have been surprised there isn’t a lot, and that I could simply be dismissed by you and/or like minded as “demon influenced”. That is indirect ADMISSION OF FAILURE by the opposition to justify their position.
    That is why you should remove Kathi’s “demon influence” accusation posts 30/3/09 246944 and 247105 – they indirectly undermine yours and her beliefs.

    On blogs, some people do occasionally have more to say than others, but there is no problem with that, as long as they are making valid, on topic comments.
    They aren’t stopping anyone else from contributing.
    In fact, they may provoke others to CEASE THEIR COMPLACENCY and GET BUSY to submit their own view, and that is VERY HEALTHY in a climate where there are concerning issues.

    Yours Sincerely,
    Edge. (Not from the U2 band). I HAVE found what I’m looking for:
    Eph 1:4-8 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will–to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

    Once you appreciate that word from God there is NO NEED to add to it with conscious altering mystical experiences, and therefore be plundered by magicians.

  107. Why Edge.

    I think I touched a nerve with a hot poker.

    Now we’re supposed to believe that someone’s conspiring to BE you by faking your IP address, because you’re a Very Important Church Person?

    I stand by my earlier comments (both about influence, and about your utter lack of knowledge of both magick and God’s supernatural) – they are further reinforced by this morning’s post from you – and I pray for the condition of your church, and the Church overall.

  108. Edge, I will allow your last comment to stand because of Kathi’s reply. I will not remove Kathi’s comments either. But please can we all put an end to this thread. If you don’t do it voluntarily I will close this post to comments, and if necessary block names and IP addresses.

  109. Rose and others,

    I am encouraged by your BIBLICAL response to Todd’s present living situation. I am astounded at how many are ignorant of Jesus’ teaching on remarriage=adultery while one has a living COVENANT spouse. Many insist on going back to OT law, made for JEWS, and yet, they will not rest on all the laws, but only this one. Jesus was very clear that just because a man/woman divorces their covenant spouse does not mean the covenant has been dissolved. That is why He said it is adultery to marry another AFTER a divorce. Many things were “tolerated” in OT times regarding marriage (including divorcing one’s covenant spouse and remarrying(a form of adultery) AND polygamy(another form of adultery). Both types of adulterous extra-marital practices were done away by Jesus. He takes ALL (believer and unbeliever) back to the creation intent for marriage—for LIFE. Paul also teaches the same exact thing (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39).

    It is a sad thing that 50+% of those who profess to know Jesus have disobeyed Him concerning His command on marriage and are now teaching others that they can follow Jesus AND remain in adultery. They teach a second vow nullifies a first………yet, there is NT scripture which shows this to be false (read about Herod/Herodias……..John lost his head for confronting them about their adulterous “marriage”. Neither divorce nor remarriage nor adultery dissolved Herodias’ marriage to Philip—-she still belonged to him, not Herod). As I said, Jesus taught the same exact thing: divorce/remarriage does NOT dissolve the one flesh He has joined together. Those who have disobeyed God in this need to get on their faces and seek Him and TRULY repent (not say, “sorry” and then keep committing adultery with the one God has not joined them to). I am beyond sad at the state of the “confessing” church today. We are no longer a light, but have instead become another avenue to excuse living in ungodliness, yet saying we belong to Jesus…………..What will Jesus say?? Mt. 7:21-23……..

  110. Cindy, the rest of us are not necessarily ignorant of anything, but we do have a different interpretation of a difficult and controversial set of biblical texts. Jesus never said anything about “covenant spouse”, this is someone’s theological construction based on the Jesus’ words, and not the only possible such construction.

  111. Easy to interpret but difficult to live.
    ===========================

    >> we do have a different interpretation of a difficult and controversial set of biblical texts

    It EASY to interpret from scripture God’s intention of ONLY ONE marriage between a man and woman, FOR LIFE, through vows that are binding through all events except death, even through abandonment, abuse, or adultery of a spouse.

    The DIFFICULTY is living it.

    >> Jesus never said anything about “covenant spouse”

    Jesus reaffirmed GOD’S INTENTION about marriage: Matthew 19:4-6 “…. at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ …………. Therefore what God has joined together, LET MAN NOT SEPARATE.”

    This sets the direction for interpreting THE ENTIRE BIBLE and “theological construction” of teaching about marriage in THE PRESENT ERA.
    Anything to do with divorcing, separating, polygamy, and “remarriage” doesn’t fit with God’s intention, so SHOULD NOT BE CATERED FOR in the PRESENT ERA.
    (“Present era” means the era from Christ’s completed work on the cross, which makes possible the fulfillment of all God’s intentions for Christian living).

    It is better to give God what he wants, rather than struggle against him by exploiting the systems of MARRIAGE FAILURE (eg. divorce) that occurred in the old Testament.

    Todd Bentley’s separating from Shonnah Bentley and going to Jessa Hasbrook does not fulfil God’s intention for marriage.
    It sets an example that DEFIES God’s intention.

    Christians in the present era should not promote or do things that defy God’s intention about ANYTHING. For example, same sex (homosexual) unions also defy God’s intention for marriage.

    ENDURING FAITHFULNESS through trials and whatever may come, is the main theme of the entire Bible.
    That lines up with the concept of “covenant spouse” which gets an explanation in Malachi 2:14-16 “…the LORD is acting as the witness between you and the wife of your youth, because you have broken faith with her, though she is your partner, the wife of your MARRIAGE COVENANT. Has not the LORD made them one? In flesh and spirit they are his. And why one? Because he was seeking godly offspring. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith with the wife of your youth. “I hate divorce,” says the LORD God of Israel, “and I hate a man’s covering himself with violence as well as with his garment,” says the LORD Almighty. So guard yourself in your spirit, and do not break faith.

    Even if Jesus didn’t use the phrase “covenant spouse”, it is the direction he indicated we MUST GO, if we want to please God.
    This conclusion is obvious when Jesus’ statements about marriage are considered in the context of the entire Bible Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21

    Arguments to support divorce and “remarriage” are often driven by conflicts of interest, eg. pressure to affirm the “remarriage” of self, family members, friends, church brethren, etc.

    Church leadership have been pressured to COMPROMISE Biblical marriage teaching for the convenience of themselves, the people they are leading, or seek to lead.

    In God’s Kingdom, compromise of moral principle ALWAYS leads to adverse consequence.
    Attempting to interpret the Bible to support moral compromise indirectly opposes God.

  112. No, James, it is not easy to interpret the variety of different, sometimes superficially conflicting, statements about marriage throughout the Bible. Your hermeneutical choice is to give absolute priority to the words of Jesus over those of Paul and from the Old Testament. That may be a good choice but it is one which you need to justify. Then you need to explain how you reconcile Paul’s teaching and the law of Moses etc with the words of Jesus, or admit openly that you reject them as not the inspired word of God.

    According to your reasoning “Anything to do with divorcing, separating, polygamy, and “remarriage” doesn’t fit with God’s intention, so [unless God’s intention has changed] SHOULD NOT [HAVE] BE[EN] CATERED FOR” in the Old Testament era as well as in the present one. But it was, by the explicit words of God in Deuteronomy 24 etc. Do you think you know God’s intention better than God himself?

  113. >> it is not easy to interpret the variety of different, sometimes superficially conflicting, statements about marriage

    It won’t be easy if you are trying to force a conclusion that contradicts God’s intention, clarified by Jesus statements.

    >> Your hermeneutical choice is to give absolute priority to the words of Jesus over those of Paul

    That isn’t what I believe or do.
    That is more of the misbehavior you have persistently done against other blog contributors in misrepresenting them, putting up “straw men”, etc.
    That behavior is improper judgement and “false witness” of people, which violates the 9th commandment: Exodus 20:16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.”

    Jesus Christ is God himself who stepped into history, and he gave important CLARIFICATION of many teachings, including about marriage. He corrected and rebuked church leaders for distorting God’s intention on many topics.

    Jesus’ statements don’t nullify everything else in the Bible.
    They just set the direction for correctly interpreting and applying entire scripture in the present (post resurrection) era.

    >> Do you think you know God’s intention better than God himself?

    More misrepresentation (false witness) from Peter Kirk.

    God’s intention for marriage (from the beginning) was “what God has joined together, LET MAN NOT SEPARATE” (Matt 19:6). The rules about marriage that Moses gave suited the old Testament era, but not the New Testament era. The difference between the 2 eras is Christ’s completed work on the cross, which raised the requirement for Christian living.

    Divorces are for those who have HARD HEARTS (Matt 19:8).
    Hard heartedness (and “stiff necks”) were ALWAYS the attitude that DISQUALIFIED PEOPLE, most likely to hell for eternity.
    For that reason alone, Christians should avoid divorce, and avoid remarrying if divorce is forced on them.
    Zech 7:12 They made their HEARTS AS HARD AS FLINT and would not listen to the law or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the LORD Almighty was very angry.

    “Stiff necks” – see http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=stiff neck&version1=31&searchtype=all&limit=none&wholewordsonly=no

    People who insist on holding God to the theology of divorce given in the Old Testament are indirectly asserting the validity of continuing with every other old Testament law, such as animal sacrifices, circumcision, eye for an eye, stoning to death for sins, etc.

    They are improperly avoiding the fulfillment of all things shown by the raised standard of conduct specified in the New Testament.
    Divorce and “remarriage” force in the opposite direction, so don’t do it.

    In the old Testament adultery was punished with stoning to death, now we are commanded to simply repent of it (go and sin no more – John 8:11).

    Divorce then “remarriage” blatantly defies this instruction.

    Todd Bentley should repent by ceasing his relationship with Jessa Hasbrook, and go to no other than his covenant wife Shonna Bentley.

  114. James, I am not trying to force any conclusions. I am simply trying to understand the whole counsel of God, not just the small subset which is the words of Jesus.

    If you are giving Paul’s words their proper place, how do you interpret the passages in which he permits divorce, under certain circumstances, which would contradict your interpretation of Jesus’ words?

    Since you accuse me of ad hominem attacks on you, I will respond by complaining at your ad hominem suggestion and misrepresentation that I am “indirectly asserting the validity of continuing with every other old Testament law”.

    But I really think there is little point in us continuing this discussion, as we clearly have irreconcilable differences in how we interpret the Bible.

  115. Pingback: A message from Adam to all of humanity as given to Pastor Rick Joyner! - Page 10 - Christian Forums

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